Were non-Calvinists predestinated to be non-Calvinists?

[George Antonios]

In other words and from where I'm sitting,
You appear to spend more time stating what a passage doesn't mean, than you do stating what it does mean.
If I'm in error about this, then I offer my apologies and ask your forgiveness for unintentionally insulting you.

Then you should retract the above. Just because you don't like the medium doesn't mean the person hasn't done the work. The video is very visual and riddled with verses.

As for your proposition, I'll wait to see what your reply to this here is first.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

I respect that.

But in defense of my own lack of desire to view videos and to stick with the written text on the page, I was wondering if you'd like to take me up on what I wrote above.
If not, then I will retract my offer.
Only one person on this forum has ever done it, and that person was the one who posted a thread asking for the exegesis of a passage.

I also don't agree with your chart, and feel that it is not detailed enough in its treatment of the contained Scriptures.

I'll take you up on your offer. I just need a couple months because I and a monergists pastor at my church are going through it right now. I want time to study and reflect. We will go over Romans 9-11 since they are a unit that ends with the doxology. Romans 8, badly needs the 7 previous chapters building up to it to understand.

We have two pastors, a monergists and a synergist.

 

[George Antonios]

I also don't agree with your chart, and feel that it is not detailed enough in its treatment of the contained Scriptures.

Hence the video. But you won't watch it. So, what do you want me to tell you?

 

[Dave G]

Then you should retract the above. Just because you don't like the medium doesn't mean the person hasn't done the work. The video is very visual and riddled with verses.

As for your proposition, I'll wait to see what your reply to this here is first.

Then I retract my offer ( but not my stating that it was not my intention to insult you, which it wasn't ), since I've already addressed your chart, in detail, in another thread.

As for the video, I don't honestly feel the need to address it, since the chart was, for me, quite enough to see where you are getting your understanding of the words from.
To be blunt, I don't see the the point in trying to figure out what "predestinate" means by attempting to define it by cross reference.
I see that it is defined by immediate context and by the literal meaning of the word...

"To determine the destiny of something before-hand".

Therefore,
We will have to simply agree to disagree.


May God bless you always, sir,
and may He remind you of the contents of what is found here:

Titus 2:1-15
Titus 3:1-11.

 

[Dave G]

I'll take you up on your offer. I just need a couple months because I and a monergists pastor at my church are going through it right now. I want time to study and reflect. We will go over Romans 9-11 since they are a unit that ends with the doxology. Romans 8, badly needs the 7 previous chapters building up to it to understand.

We have two pastors, a monergists and a synergist.

I'd be glad to, Steven.

Let me know when you are ready to go, and I'll watch for a thread.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

I'd be glad to, Steven.

Let me know when you are ready to go, and I'll watch for a thread.

Thank you. I will let you know in ~2 months.

 

[George Antonios]

Then I retract my offer, since I've already addressed your chart, in detail, in another thread.

First, will you retract what you said about me not spending time saying what the verses mean, as you said you are open to doing?

To be blunt, I don't see the need to try and figure out what "predestinate" means by attempting to define it by cross reference.
I see that it is defined by immediate context and by the literal meaning of the word

A) Proving things with cross references is the Biblical method:

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
The spiritual things in context are the words and that matches Christ's teaching that his words are spirit (Jn.6:63).

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

B) It wasn't just cross-references, but it was context as well, especially evident if you watch the video, but you won't. So, pretty convenient.

C)

"To determine the destiny of something before-hand".

I didn't deny that. God determined before-hand that he would grant the believer a glorified body after the image of Christ's own resurrection body. The Bible never says that what is predestinated is salvation or that the predestination was done in eternity past.

 

[Dave G]

First, will you retract what you said about me not spending time saying what the verses mean, as you said you are open to doing?

I agree to retract what I said here:

As the underlined clearly shows ( to me ), your opinion of all things "Calvinistic"...( which I sense isn't so much a hatred of William Tyndale, John Bunyan, John Newton, Isaac Watts, Charles Haddon Spurgeon, George Mueller or many others who believed similarly to John Calvin, but what those that you cannot find another label to pin on them actually believe from the Scriptures )...Is not one of patiently trying to convince them of what you see in the Bible, but rather in denouncing what they believe and teach.

You've done an appreciable amount of work, and I respect that.

However...
I would also ask that you retract what you said here:

Just because I and literally hundreds of thousands of other Christians don't espouse your non-Biblical extreme application of Daniel 4:35 to the point at which God foreordains the being and motion of every physical and volitional event doesn't mean we "struggle to accept/believe that God ordains the affairs of men". We argue that you don't understand what those verses mean because of your Calvinistically coloured philosophical lenses which mine the Bible for language that sounds correlative to your gnostic fatalistic deterministic view of God and his work.

But mine is not conditional on yours.

 

[Dave G]

B) It wasn't just cross-references, but it was context as well, especially evident if you watch the video, but you won't. So, pretty convenient.

I'll watch it...
But I don't really expect to find anything that convinces me out of what's taken the Lord 17+ years to show me, George.

I'm also used to being outnumbered.
It goes with the territory.

 

[George Antonios]

I'll watch it...
But I don't really expect to find anything that convinces me out of what's taken the Lord 17+ years to show me, George.

I'm also used to being outnumbered.
It goes with the territory.

If you'll watch it, then sure, I'll take you up on your offer.

 

[AustinC]

Again, that works both ways, which is why I thought you would need to refute it, since your philosophy isn’t presented in the Bible.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Derf, I have shared scripture. I don't need a philosophy.

 

[Dave G]

@George Antonios :

Comment on the video thus far,
as I did watch part of it before and have watched it through for almost 9 minutes:

IMO, you spend a long time attempting to prove that the adoption of children is only the redemption of the physical body, George.

Why not simply believe the words in Ephesians 1:5 as stated?
Don't you automatically know that the adoption of children is speaking to their being adopted into the family of God, as sons and daughters?
To be frank, the very first time I read it, I didn't feel the need to question what it meant...

I just knew.

I also see that "my definition" is cross-referenced by John 1:12, Romans 8:1, Romans 8:14-19, Galatians 3:26 and Galatians 4:5, to name most.
Watching some more...

 

[George Antonios]

Why not simply believe the words in Ephesians 1:5 as stated?

See, it's those kinds of dishonest accusations of unbelief right there and make it so hard to get through.

 

[Dave G]

If you'll watch it, then sure, I'll take you up on your offer.

OK,
at 10:22, I see you making the point that believers are not predestinated to salvation, but to being conformed to the image of His Son...
To which I agreed.

Here I replied in the other thread that it was only those that were foreknown that were predestinated to the image of Christ.
Therefore, no one who is not foreknown, will be predestinated to the image of His Son, and based on the rest of the passage of Romans 8:29-30, not one person outside of being foreknown will ever experience these:

1) Being predestinated to the image of His Son as was referenced above.
2) Being called.
3) Being justified.
4) Being glorified.

The language of the passage is all-inclusive, and therefore, from God's point of view ( which Paul is speaking from ), all men do not have the privilege of what is contained there.
Only the foreknown do.

Watching more...

 

[Salty]

six hour warning
This thread will be closed no sooner than 130 am EDT (Wed) / 1030 pm PDT (Tue)

 

[Dave G]

See, it's those kinds of dishonest accusations of unbelief right there and make it so hard to get through.

Dishonest?
I'm being quite honest, George.
I'm sorry if you find that offensive.

I don't see you believing the words, as stated.
The adoption is to our sonship...

Plainly stated:

" according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ).

You may get angry if you want, but that's how I see it.

In Ephesians 1:4-5,
Predestination is to the adoption "of children"...not "of our bodies" as other Scriptures separately develop.
In other words, both, not one or the other.

The redemption of our bodies is a separate, yet God-glorifying event that finishes God's work of redeeming a people for Himself, and the redemption of the believer's body at His second coming is the final piece in conforming them to the image of Christ.

 

[George Antonios]

Dishonest?
I'm being quite honest, George.

I'm sorry if you find that offensive.
I don't see you believing the words, as stated.

The adoption is to our sonship...
Plainly stated:

" according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ).

You may get angry if you want, but that's how I see it.

In Ephesians 1:4-5,
It is "of children"...not "of our bodies" as other Scriptures separately develop.

Start a thread or PM me, and we can go through it, one point at a time.

 

[Dave G]

Start a thread or PM me, and we can go through it, one point at a time.

Thanks, but I think your video is enough.

We can go through it, one point at a time, if that would help.

 

[George Antonios]

Thanks, but I think your video is enough.

We can go through it, one point at a time, if that would help.

Ok but this thread closes soon hence pm or new thread

 

[Dave G]

Start a thread or PM me, and we can go through it, one point at a time.

At 11:12, you make the statement, " That's a lot of arrows, but you need to make those arrows if you want the Bible truth."

George,
God's word tells me what I need to have if I want the Bible truth...
His Spirit:

" Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God." ( 1 Corinthians 2:12 ).
" But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth." ( 1 John 2:20-21 ).

We know the truth because we have an "unction" ( annointing ) from God...
His Spirit:

" But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." ( 1 John 2:27 ).



We have His Spirit, given to us when we believed ( Ephesians 1:13 ).
Therefore, all that we need that pertains to life and godliness has been given to us by Him:

" According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:" ( 2 Peter 1:3 )

At the end of the day, l realize that all that God's teachers really have to do is to teach me the Scriptures themselves ( not how to understand them ),
and I can understand them for myself.
Respectfully, you don't have to tell me how to understand it...

I repeat:
I have His Spirit to show me that.