Were Old Testament Saints Born Again?

[Darrell C]

Agreed but what started me personally to rethink it through was a Pastor friend said in the OT believers could loose their salvation but NT believes could not.

Does that mean that you previously held to a view salvation could be lost or you hold to that now?

Concerning the statement, we again look at the fact that the Saints of the Old Testament were justified by grace through faith. To say they lost their salvation implies that the Lord retracted a declaration He Himself concluded. Think about it, would God count someone just or righteous when in His omniscience He knew the eventual outcome of their lives? Take David, for instance: he would sin, and yet despite that it said he is one after God's own heart. We then look at whether, if salvation could be lost, our salvation is dependent on not dying when we are in a time of failure. "Hope I don't die right now," lol.

Salvation for the Old Testament saints was as secure for them as it is for us. Not because of their works, or their condition at the time of their death, but because of God's declaration of their position before them. He declares them just. He declares them righteous. But if we take the position that this declaration can be reversed due to the actions of sinful man that is saved in the very state of being separated from man...we then are forced to teach a works-based salvation and at that point we declare that scripture is wrong, men are not saved by grace through faith, salvation is after all based on works which we do.

And no-one has yet denied scripture to prove such a position.

In other words, salvation could not be lost in the Old Testament, and it cannot be lost in the New. We rely upon God's declaration of righteousness and this is through the imputation of Christ's righteousness on our behalf. Not ours.

He used Psalm 51 for his example when David said "do not take your Holy Spirit from me".

Consider David's adultery: was he led of God when he succumbed to his own lusts? We see that David was led of God much of His life, but there are times when David was fleshly, doing what he wanted rather than being led of God.

David had in mind, I believe, that which occurred to Saul. The Spirit of God departed from Saul. David feared this. Now consider why David feared this: adultery and murder. If salvation was by works, those two actions would, I would think, be grounds for both losing salvation as well as the departure of the Holy Spirit.

Did that happen? I don't believe it did. On David's deathbed he was at peace with God. If anyone could lose salvation, it would seem to me that David was a good candidate. His sin could be viewed to at the very least equal that of Saul, and we might even say (some of us)...that it was much worse. After all, he stole a man's wife, and then had her husband killed just for the simple reason he didn't want "his" kingdom aware of his actions. He knew God was aware of them, right?

It is just my opinion that Saul will be (is) in Heaven. David will be (is) in Heaven. Not because their works met a certain level of acceptation, but because of God's declaration (though I can't recall offhand a definitive picture of Saul).

When David pled that God not take His Spirit from Him, he feared being left to his own devices as Saul was. Nothing more.

And now consider this:



1 Samuel 16:11-13

King James Version (KJV)


11 And Samuel said unto Jesse, Are here all thy children? And he said, There remaineth yet the youngest, and, behold, he keepeth the sheep. And Samuel said unto Jesse, Send and fetch him: for we will not sit down till he come hither.

12 And he sent, and brought him in. Now he was ruddy, and withal of a beautiful countenance, and goodly to look to. And the Lord said, Arise, anoint him: for this is he.

13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the Lord came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.


We see here David being anointed and without question this is the day that the "Spirit of the Lord came upon David."

Will we think that Samuel saved him? Meaning...where is David's conversion? In this we can see a distinct difference between the indwelling of the Spirit of God and the Spirit of God coming upon someone in the Old Testament. David was not at this time "saved" because he was chosen to be King, but he was empowered by God in that the Lord at this time comes upon Him for the purpose of directing his life.

Note that it says "the Spirit of the Lord came upon David from that day forward," by which we can conclude that unlike Saul, as seen in the next verse...


14 But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him.


...the Spirit of God was with David from that day forward. The question we have to ask is can we disregard the fact that the Comforter did not come until after the Lord's Ascension? Do we try to make this anointing the moment of David's salvation? If not...why not? If so...why?

It is just my view that the Spirit of God coming upon men in the Old Testament cannot be equated to the event we see take place in the New Testament, and here, seeing the very moment in which the Spirit of God comes upon David, we have to consider that this was not a salvation experience, but one of anointing for the purpose of ministry, here, David's ministry as King.

Hope that makes sense.

That got me thinking and found others who hold a different view like John Piper for example.

I am not familiar with Piper, though his name seems to come up around here often, lol.

So I cannot comment on him.

(Listen to this) http://www.desiringgod.org/resource...evers-experienced-the-spirit-before-pentecost

I'll be honest, JK, the way I am, if Piper teaches loss of salvation and I read his work, I will be compelled to respond to it, and I just do not have that time right now, lol.

Perhaps if you could quote him concerning something you feel is relevant to the discussion that might take less time.

Anyways I like to check if the Pastor is right on an issue or should I find out for myself.:type:

I would mention two things: first, if we look into our Pastor's theology deep enough we are going to find something we disagree with, at which point we either have to conclude our Pastor is wrong or we are. Secondly, we are commanded to be in submission to those appointed with the rule over us (i.e. leadership in the Body) so if we keep in mind that we first have a need to be in submission and secondly that there is going to be something we disagree with if we look hard enough, we might save ourselves some church-hopping, lol.

Without question we should measure every teaching of the Pastor by the measure of scripture, and if we find disagreement to the point where we believe false doctrine is taught, we have a responsibility to God and our families to remove ourselves from that ministry. But usually God will direct us to capable men that can minister to us, and sometimes we might find out that the Pastor is right after all, lol, believe it or not.

I remember even John MacArthur said he had his view challenged on things before.

MacArthur is, in my opinion, probably the best preacher/teacher out there, and without hesitation I will direct people to his ministry.

Doesn't mean I think John is correct about everything, though, lol. And until I can find where it is I have slipped up, I will simply show my admiration for John MacArthur and praise God for what he has been able to accomplish through him.

In my opinion, the MacArthur Study Bible is probably one of the greatest resources new believers can have. Not just for the commentary, but for the innumerable cross references that it contains.

I am at odds with MacArthur on a few things, such as he takes the view men have always gone to be with the Lord whereas I believe it was not until after the Cross this began, and prior to that men went to sheol/hades to await their redemption through the atoning work of Christ.

But I love the guy, plain and simple. There are few that I feel have done their homework like he has, and I have the greatest respect for him.

That his views are challenged goes without saying. He has come under fire for making some rather controversial statements and teachings that pull no punches, such as his teaching concerning Charismatics. He has no rival, I believe, when it comes to expository preaching. But, having said all that, we still, individually, have a responsibility before God to get into the word and spend time with God, and allow Him to teach us. If we do that...He will.

Okay, sorry for rambling on, but thanks for the response. Look forward to next time, and hope all have a blessed as well as safe Memorial Day.

Thanks to all of those that have and do serve in our military forces. I for one support our troops and am grateful that even today, in a time when many seek to remove the Name of Jesus Christ from public view, we still have men and women that are led of the Spirit of God serving, and laying their lives down for the freedom and freedoms we all enjoy in this country.

God bless.

 

[Van]

17 pages and counting.

The OTS were not born again before Christ died. They were not made righteous before Christ died. No one entered heaven before Christ died.

On and on, one vague phrase after another is hoisted and proclaimed to be born again. You cannot go through a door because a door is planned.

How many believe there is a verse that says God declared the OTS righteous before Christ died. Do a search. Certainly men like Abraham were considered righteous men, but to claim he was sinless is silly. And how is the body of flesh (sin) removed to make a person holy and blameless? By being baptized spiritually into Christ, and undergoing the circumcision of Christ. And everyone baptized into Christ is baptized into His death. Thus there were no righteous men before Christ died. None, zip, nada.

 

[Darrell C]

17 pages and counting.

The OTS were not born again before Christ died. They were not made righteous before Christ died. No one entered heaven before Christ died.

On and on, one vague phrase after another is hoisted and proclaimed to be born again. You cannot go through a door because a door is planned.

How many believe there is a verse that says God declared the OTS righteous before Christ died. Do a search. Certainly men like Abraham were considered righteous men, but to claim he was sinless is silly. And how is the body of flesh (sin) removed to make a person holy and blameless? By being baptized spiritually into Christ, and undergoing the circumcision of Christ. And everyone baptized into Christ is baptized into His death. Thus there were no righteous men before Christ died. None, zip, nada.

Hello Van, you seem to have become bored with the thread, so playing "the President's Advocate," I will present a passage from scripture and await your thoughts on it:



1 Samuel 10:9-10

King James Version (KJV)

9 And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day.

10 And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them.


Here we see two events which could be construed as a depiction of the new birth in the Old Testament: a new heart, and the Spirit of God coming upon someone.

How would you distinguish between this event in the life of Saul and the New Birth according to the New Covenant standard?

God bless.

 

[DHK]

How many believe there is a verse that says God declared the OTS righteous before Christ died. Do a search. Certainly men like Abraham were considered righteous men, but to claim he was sinless is silly. And how is the body of flesh (sin) removed to make a person holy and blameless? By being baptized spiritually into Christ, and undergoing the circumcision of Christ. And everyone baptized into Christ is baptized into His death. Thus there were no righteous men before Christ died. None, zip, nada.

Personally I think your theology is out of whack.
Your first question: "How many believe there is a verse that says God declared the OTS righteous before Christ died?

Peter did.
2 Peter 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;
--He, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, declared Lot to be a righteous soul. He said that he was a just man.
Whose word shall I take: Peter's or yours?

Your next statement:
"To claim that he was sinless is silly."
In answer, "If you are making a claim to sinlessness," that also is silliness, so what is the difference." In fact you stand on more dangerous ground than he does. You have more light.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[percho]

Your favorite "proof text" for this, one taken out of context, is in Hebrews.

Hebrews 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Note:
"better thing for us."
"they without us should not be made perfect."

This does not refer exclusively to OT saints. It includes "us," that is, NT saints. You take this out of context not realizing it refers to us, NT saints as well.

"They, without us should not be made perfect."

I agree even as they without us were not made perfect neither will we before someone born 200 years from now and becomes a Christian be made perfect.

I believe that perfection is in the future for all whether it be the OT saints the present saints of the future saints.

It in in the same context as 1 Thess. 4:15-17

The OT and NT saints will rise those living will be changed and together be present with the Lord in perfection.


and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Does that mean that you previously held to a view salvation could be lost?

Nope.....just seemed inconsistent that he believed they could loose it in the OT but not in the NT. Piper does not believe you can loose your salvation and neather do I. But if you like Johnny Mac you would like Piper.....your choice to check.

 

[Jedi Knight]

double post.

 

[Darrell C]

Nope.....just seemed inconsistent that he believed they could loose it in the OT but not in the NT. Piper does not believe you can loose your salvation and neather do I. But if you like Johnny Mac you would like Piper.....your choice to check.

I'm going to tell John you're calling him that, lol.

I rarely have time to check in with MacArthur, much less take a look at other teachers. He seems to be held in high regard by a number of people here, though, so I am just guessing that he must not be that bad of a teacher, lol.

Usually, though, most of my study is confined to the word of God and Strong's Concordance. Before learning about the forums on the internet, I did all of my word studies in the good ole hardbound cover of Strong's, and when I found the online Strong's, again, I was like a kid in a candy store. Of course some might think a bull in a china shop might be a more apt description. :laugh:

I also enjoy listening to preaching and Bible question and answer on the radio when I get the chance (I do quite a bit of driving in my profession).

But most of all, I enjoy discussing scripture with other believers. This has been one of the primary sources for growth and motivation for study for me. In doing this my views are challenged in a way that I don't think is available in any other form of study. Along the way the perspectives of others have helped me to consider a number of things that likely I would not have even thought of looking into.

But glad to hear you believe in the security of the believer, JK. It's amazing how many there are that do not. Of course, the answer for them is study, lol.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

I agree even as they without us were not made perfect neither will we before someone born 200 years from now and becomes a Christian be made perfect.

I believe that perfection is in the future for all whether it be the OT saints the present saints of the future saints.

It in in the same context as 1 Thess. 4:15-17

The OT and NT saints will rise those living will be changed and together be present with the Lord in perfection.


and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Hello Percho, couldn't resist responding to this, hope you don't mind.

If 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 has a context of perfection and it is the same context as found in Hebrews 11, how then can the writer just prior to ch.11 make this statement:




Hebrews 10:14

King James Version (KJV)

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


Would you see this in a future tense? That it is yet to take place?

Here is a verse that applies to the context of ch.11, and I submit it for your consideration:



Hebrews 12:23

King James Version (KJV)

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,


"The spirits of just men made perfect."

These are the Old Testament Saints, I believe. Both f these passages refer to a completed action, I believe. What do you think?

God bless.

 

[Van]

Hi Folks, notice more vague passages are hoisted as meaning OTS were born again. The beat goes on.

In 1 Samuel 10:9-10 we have Saul being anointed with the Holy Spirit, equipping his to serve as King. The Holy Spirit changed Saul so that he seemed to be a different man. But having the Spirit of God come upon Saul mightily, does not equate with being placed spiritually in Christ and being made righteous. When we are born anew, and sealed with the Holy Spirit forever, the Spirit is not taken away.

Next we have a reference to a verse that says a man, Lot in this case, is considered righteous, meaning he strives to follow God. Again, there is no doubt the OTS had faith in God and from that faith flowed faithfulness, then they certainly could be considered righteous. However, did the verse say God declared Lot or Abraham, or any OTS righteous? No. Was Lot sinless or had he broken the Law? For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory, the faultless perfection, of God.

Anyone can make arguments referencing vague passages, but they continue to ignore the specifics. We are washed by the blood of Jesus, not by the planned spilling of His blood. The OTS had to wait to be made perfect, holy and blameless until Christ died.

Fundamentally, the issue is applying the New Covenant in the Blood of Christ to those who gained approval through faith under the Old Covenant, before Christ shed His blood.

Finally, John teaches we sin, and if we claim we do not we make God a liar, and that in Christ we are without sin. The only way to reconcile this is to say we still have the thoughts and actions that were considered sinful and thus piled up wrath, but those thoughts and actions do not pile up wrath because the penalty for our sins has been taken away, the circumcision of Christ.

 

[DHK]

Hi Folks, notice more vague passages are hoisted as meaning OTS were born again. The beat goes on.

Next we have a reference to a verse that says a man, Lot in this case, is considered righteous, meaning he strives to follow God. Again, there is no doubt the OTS had faith in God and from that faith flowed faithfulness, then they certainly could be considered righteous. However, did the verse say God declared Lot or Abraham, or any OTS righteous? No. Was Lot sinless or had he broken the Law? For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory, the faultless perfection, of God.

Anyone can make arguments referencing vague passages, but they continue to ignore the specifics. We are washed by the blood of Jesus, not by the planned spilling of His blood. The OTS had to wait to be made perfect, holy and blameless until Christ died.

Anyone? And anyone can add to the word, and add their own meanings to what is plainly written in the Word, demeaning that which is actually said.
Peter said that Lot was a "just man,"...."that righteous soul."
But you have added your own interpretation "meaning he strives to follow God." That is not what Peter said. Peter declared him to be both just and righteous. Why are you saying something other than what the Word says? You are forcing your theology into the text. You know that is called eisigeses. Try exegesis instead.

 

[Jope]

Hi Folks, notice more vague passages are hoisted as meaning OTS were born again. The beat goes on.

In 1 Samuel 10:9-10 we have Saul being anointed with the Holy Spirit, equipping his to serve as King. The Holy Spirit changed Saul so that he seemed to be a different man. But having the Spirit of God come upon Saul mightily, does not equate with being placed spiritually in Christ and being made righteous. When we are born anew, and sealed with the Holy Spirit forever, the Spirit is not taken away.

Next we have a reference to a verse that says a man, Lot in this case, is considered righteous, meaning he strives to follow God. Again, there is no doubt the OTS had faith in God and from that faith flowed faithfulness, then they certainly could be considered righteous. However, did the verse say God declared Lot or Abraham, or any OTS righteous? No. Was Lot sinless or had he broken the Law? For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory, the faultless perfection, of God.

Anyone can make arguments referencing vague passages, but they continue to ignore the specifics. We are washed by the blood of Jesus, not by the planned spilling of His blood. The OTS had to wait to be made perfect, holy and blameless until Christ died.

Fundamentally, the issue is applying the New Covenant in the Blood of Christ to those who gained approval through faith under the Old Covenant, before Christ shed His blood.

Finally, John teaches we sin, and if we claim we do not we make God a liar, and that in Christ we are without sin. The only way to reconcile this is to say we still have the thoughts and actions that were considered sinful and thus piled up wrath, but those thoughts and actions do not pile up wrath because the penalty for our sins has been taken away, the circumcision of Christ.

A different righteousness is now revealed (Rom. 3:21-22). This righteousness wasn't revealed in Lot's time.

 

[percho]

Hello Percho, couldn't resist responding to this, hope you don't mind.

If 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 has a context of perfection and it is the same context as found in Hebrews 11, how then can the writer just prior to ch.11 make this statement:




Hebrews 10:14

King James Version (KJV)

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


Would you see this in a future tense? That it is yet to take place?

Here is a verse that applies to the context of ch.11, and I submit it for your consideration:



Hebrews 12:23

King James Version (KJV)

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,


"The spirits of just men made perfect."

These are the Old Testament Saints, I believe. Both f these passages refer to a completed action, I believe. What do you think?

God bless.

I think that Christ was the lamb, the sin offering, that in the past tense by his resurrection from the dead became the author of.

He was raised from the dead to die no more.

He was raised from the dead no more to return to corruption.

There is a perfection in the resurrected Son of God, the Son of Man, that he did not possess before his death.

He learned obedience through sufferings.
He became obedient unto death.

What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels;

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels


The Son of God was lower than the angels in that he could die yet by inheritance he obtained a more excellent name than they.

Was this inheritance at a moment in time. Is this God the Son inheriting or is this the Son of God, the man child Jesus born unto the virgin Mary inheriting?

 

[Jedi Knight]

Back to the OP

We're saints of old in the Old Testament indwelt "born again" by the Holy Spirit?

 

[Yeshua1]

We're saints of old in the Old Testament indwelt "born again" by the Holy Spirit?

saved, not indwelt, as he only came upon those in specefic roles such as prophets and Kings, judges, would come upon them and depart!

 

[Jedi Knight]

saved, not indwelt, as he only came upon those in specefic roles such as prophets and Kings, judges, would come upon them and depart!

Scripture says indwelt. 1eter 1:11 and MANY OT passages says the same that I have posted. No one can be save that's not indwelt.....no two kinds of salvation. The Holy Spirit came upon the saints in the NT too just like the OT.

 

[Yeshua1]

Scripture says indwelt. 1eter 1:11 and MANY OT passages says the same that I have posted. No one can be save that's not indwelt.....no two kinds of salvation.

before the Cross, God remitted/forbeared their sins, after the Cross, he actually sent the HS to indwel us, as the Body of Christ not on earth until messiah came!

 

[Jedi Knight]

before the Cross, God remitted/forbeared their sins, after the Cross, he actually sent the HS to indwel us, as the Body of Christ not on earth until messiah came!

The Holy Spirit was around in OT too...not just when Jesus sent Him.

 

[Yeshua1]

The Holy Spirit was around in OT too...not just when Jesus sent Him.

But the church was not yet, so He was not working as He does not sincejesus died/rose and ascended!

 

[Jedi Knight]

But the church was not yet, so He was not working as He does not sincejesus died/rose and ascended!

Remember what Jesus told the Jews that were accusing him? He said why is it you cannot understand what I am saying? Your of you Father the Devil. That's in John's Gospel and in first John it says "But you belong to God, my dear children. You have already won a victory over those people, because the Spirit who lives in you is greater than the spirit who lives in the world." Only those who have the Spirit on the inside old or new can hear his voice and discern truth from error.