Were the 12 Apostles supposed to be 12 tribes of Isreal in the "new Isreal?"

[JesusFan]

remember reading in a text book on NT theology in school that the author premise was that jesus chose 12 Apostles as symbolic represenatives of the new isreal, that would come into existence after His death and resurrection?

that the Church world replace national Isreal with true/spiritual Isreal?

Sounds like Covenant theology 101

Any one else ever read this?

 

[Tom Butler]

Never heard of it. What is the basis for that view?

 

[JesusFan]

Never heard of it. What is the basis for that view?

IF I remember the Author correctly, his point was that Jesus was setting up the "new isreal" true isreal now on earth through the 12 Apostles, who stood for 12 tribes of old isreal in a spirtual sense!

So Church was 'real" Isreal, as those aprt of it were put in by faith in jesus!

 

[revmwc]

remember reading in a text book on NT theology in school that the author premise was that jesus chose 12 Apostles as symbolic represenatives of the new isreal, that would come into existence after His death and resurrection?

that the Church world replace national Isreal with true/spiritual Isreal?

Sounds like Covenant theology 101

Any one else ever read this?

First you need to understand numbers in scripture.
There are 4 numbers which represent perfection or completion:
3 = divine perfection as in the trinity
7 = Spiritual perfection as God completed His work and Rested the Seventh Day
10 = Ordinal perfection or the Perfect order completed
12 = Governmental perfection or Completion
12 Tribes would rule over Israel, the 12 Disciples chosen as perfect Rule in Christ Kingdom had it been set up but which was not. So the 12 Apostoles began the ruling authority of the Early church and thus Perfection of the Spiritual Government over the Church as in the completing of Scripture and Building of the Church. Thus Paul was the 12th that replaced Judas.

 

[DHK]

remember reading in a text book on NT theology in school that the author premise was that jesus chose 12 Apostles as symbolic represenatives of the new isreal, that would come into existence after His death and resurrection?

that the Church world replace national Isreal with true/spiritual Isreal?

Sounds like Covenant theology 101

Any one else ever read this?

It sounds like a form of Replacement Theology, which IMO, is heretical.
The church never replaced Israel. Israel is alive and well today. It existed, and does exist along side the church. It always will. The Lord has laid it aside for a temporary period of time, but He will restore them again according to His promises to Abraham.

Paul said:
Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: (1 Corinthians 10:32)
--There existed those three delineations in Paul's day. They still exist today.

 

[Alcott]

I don't remember hearing that, but I have heard that there are many who think the '24 elders' in Revelation are the 12 tribal roots and the 12 apostles... meaning, for one thing, that John was looking at himself among them.

 

[Grasshopper]

remember reading in a text book on NT theology in school that the author premise was that jesus chose 12 Apostles as symbolic represenatives of the new isreal, that would come into existence after His death and resurrection?

that the Church world replace national Isreal with true/spiritual Isreal?

Sounds like Covenant theology 101

Any one else ever read this?

The Church doesn't replace Israel, she is Israel. Here is someone who makes this case: http://www.worldwithoutend.info/start/audios/acts.htm

 

[Iconoclast]

The Church doesn't replace Israel, she is Israel. Here is someone who makes this case: http://www.worldwithoutend.info/start/audios/acts.htm

:applause::applause::applause:

Yes....Jesus is the True Israel and us In Him.

The church is grafted in...we do not have our own private olive tree....

Those who keep a distiction error.

Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: (1 Corinthians 10:32)
--There existed those three delineations in Paul's day. They still exist today.

Jew or gentile exist...but in the church the middle wall of partition is broken down....eph2:11-20

11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

whosoever will...deny this is where the heresy comes in...it cannot be written plainer than it is,

 

[DHK]

:applause::applause::applause:

Yes....Jesus is the True Israel and us In Him.

The church is grafted in...we do not have our own private olive tree....

Those who keep a distiction error.

So Paul was in error?

Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: (1 Corinthians 10:32)

Jew or gentile exist...but in the church the middle wall of partition is broken down....eph2:11-20

Paul was no schizophrenic. The same Paul that wrote I and II Corinthians also wrote Ephesians. He does not oppose himself in doctrine. The above verse in Ephesians speaks of believers in the Ephesian church. Some had a Gentile background and some a Jewish background. No matter what their background was, they were one in Christ. This was Paul's teaching.

whosoever will...deny this is where the heresy comes in...it cannot be written plainer than it is,

You accuse Paul of teaching heresy??
That is quite an accusation. Here is his timeless teaching:

Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: (1 Corinthians 10:32)

The Jews, The Gentiles, The Christian believers. Those three groups exist today as much as they did in Paul's day. Nothing has changed. Paul went to the Jews, prayed for the Jews, felt that he had an obligation to the Jews. We have the same--both to the Jews and to the Gentiles. Both groups exist. Today there is only one way to salvation--that is through Jesus Christ our Lord. That way is the same whether one be a Jew or a Gentile.

 

[Iconoclast]

dhk,

So Paul was in error?

No ...Paul was not in error.....I think your understanding of Paul is in error.

You accuse Paul of teaching heresy??
That is quite an accusation. Here is his timeless teaching

No,,,,I did not accuse Paul of heresy.

You are twisting my words here because your false idea is being exposed,You have no answer..so you suggest I am accusing Paul of heresy

I have asked you before not to do this...that is...jump to false conclusions based on your "logic". You are close to bearing false witness against me.

I quoted Paul's teaching because it corrects your false understanding of 1 cor 10:32..thats all....

jews/ gentiles....are one new man in Christ.

m
those who erect an artificial seperation after God has made ome new man, are in error...They oppose Pauls teaching, they oppose God.

 

[preacher4truth]

So Paul was in error?

Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: (1 Corinthians 10:32)

Paul was no schizophrenic. The same Paul that wrote I and II Corinthians also wrote Ephesians. He does not oppose himself in doctrine. The above verse in Ephesians speaks of believers in the Ephesian church. Some had a Gentile background and some a Jewish background. No matter what their background was, they were one in Christ. This was Paul's teaching.

You accuse Paul of teaching heresy??
That is quite an accusation. Here is his timeless teaching:

Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: (1 Corinthians 10:32)

The Jews, The Gentiles, The Christian believers. Those three groups exist today as much as they did in Paul's day. Nothing has changed. Paul went to the Jews, prayed for the Jews, felt that he had an obligation to the Jews. We have the same--both to the Jews and to the Gentiles. Both groups exist. Today there is only one way to salvation--that is through Jesus Christ our Lord. That way is the same whether one be a Jew or a Gentile.

No, you're in error.

To top your error off you then resort to fantastical and unfounded accusations as if Iconoclast accuses Paul of being heretical. He didn't. Iconoclast gave you good doctrine and Scripture, you should heed it.

 

[DHK]

No, you're in error.

To top your error off you then resort to fantastical and unfounded accusations as if Iconoclast accuses Paul of being heretical. He didn't. Iconoclast gave you good doctrine and Scripture, you should heed it.

Typical response from you: tell one that there in error, but can't tell how.
If you are here only to call people out and post ugly posts, turn in your resignation and go somewhere else.

 

[DHK]

I have asked you before not to do this...that is...jump to false conclusions based on your "logic". You are close to bearing false witness against me.

I quoted Paul's teaching because it corrects your false understanding of 1 cor 10:32..thats all....

jews/ gentiles....are one new man in Christ.


those who erect an artificial seperation after God has made ome new man, are in error...They oppose Pauls teaching, they oppose God.

Paul's teaching in Ephesus does not contradict Paul's teaching in Corinth.
What was Paul teaching.
He was teaching that the Jews (saved) and Gentiles (saved) were one in Christ. Of course any person that is saved is one in Christ. Today if a Muslim got saved we would say the same thing. He would be a converted Muslim, one in Christ with us.

The Gentiles left their paganism behind.
Muslims leave Islam behind.
And Jews had to leave Judaism behind.
--Thus they were one in Christ. They could not bring their former religious baggage with them, even if Christ was a Jew. This was Christianity not Judaism.

There is only one way to the Father; one way to be saved, and that is through Christ (John 14:6). There is no other way.
That is the meaning of the passage in Ephesians.

There were and are still 3 groups of people in the world: the Jew, the Gentile, and the believers (church of God).
Why would you deny this fact?
Paul writes to the church at Rome and pours out his heart for the Jew, willing even to spend a lost eternity for them.

For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; (Romans 9:3-4)

Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. (Romans 10:1)

Three chapters he spends writing about Israel and how Israel fits into God's plan. This letter was written much later than the letters to Corinth. They were still a different entity then. They are still a different entity now.

 

[quantumfaith]

Typical response from you: tell one that there in error, but can't tell how.
If you are here only to call people out and post ugly posts, turn in your resignation and go somewhere else.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

Second

 

[Iconoclast]

Paul's teaching in Ephesus does not contradict Paul's teaching in Corinth.
What was Paul teaching.
He was teaching that the Jews (saved) and Gentiles (saved) were one in Christ. Of course any person that is saved is one in Christ. Today if a Muslim got saved we would say the same thing. He would be a converted Muslim, one in Christ with us.

The Gentiles left their paganism behind.
Muslims leave Islam behind.
And Jews had to leave Judaism behind.
--Thus they were one in Christ. They could not bring their former religious baggage with them, even if Christ was a Jew. This was Christianity not Judaism.

There is only one way to the Father; one way to be saved, and that is through Christ (John 14:6). There is no other way.
That is the meaning of the passage in Ephesians.

There were and are still 3 groups of people in the world: the Jew, the Gentile, and the believers (church of God).
Why would you deny this fact?
Paul writes to the church at Rome and pours out his heart for the Jew, willing even to spend a lost eternity for them.

For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; (Romans 9:3-4)

Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. (Romans 10:1)

Three chapters he spends writing about Israel and how Israel fits into God's plan. This letter was written much later than the letters to Corinth. They were still a different entity then. They are still a different entity now.

DHK,
Nothing I posted in post 8 is any different from what you are posting here!
Paul writes three chapters explaining that most of Israel has gone into apostasy....God preserved an elect remnant...and gentiles are now being grafted in on equal footing......ONE NEW MAN..

Paul desired that all would repent and believe;

26Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

27For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.

28And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.

29And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.

30But God raised him from the dead:

31And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.

32And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,

33God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

34And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

35Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

36For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

37But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.

38Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

39And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

40Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;

41Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

42And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

43Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

44And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

45But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.

46Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

47For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

48And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

49And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.

50But the Jews stirred up the devout and honourable women, and the chief men of the city, and raised persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them out of their coasts.

51But they shook off the dust of their feet against them, and came unto Iconium.

52And the disciples were filled with joy, and with the Holy Ghost.

 

[tinytim]

Israel is going to Hell.. without turning to their true king, Jesus.
Jesus is the king, his kingdom is the church, the church is Spiritual Israel.

Israel turned their backs on Christ.
Christ is the only way..

 

[spopey]

Hello HDK - How do you reconcile this three delineations to Galatians 3:28-29 and 1 Peter 2:4-5 (where Peter is quoting Exodus and applying it to the church) asking not accusing looking for a real answer God Bless

 

[Iconoclast]

There were and are still 3 groups of people in the world: the Jew, the Gentile, and the believers (church of God).
Why would you deny this fact?

I do not deny this....there are unsaved jews, unsaved gentiles, and the church made up of saved persons.

 

[DHK]

I do not deny this....there are unsaved jews, unsaved gentiles, and the church made up of saved persons.

Then we agree. And God is still not done with Israel yet. Though unsaved now, he has left a remnant that he will claim for his own in the future. That remnant is not within Christianity. It is future.

"They shall look upon him whom they have pierced."
"So then, all Israel shall be saved."

At some point in history Christ will come for that remnant of the seed of David and they will turn to him as a nation and be saved. But for now there remains the Jews, the Gentiles, and the church of God.

 

[DHK]

Hello HDK - How do you reconcile this three delineations to Galatians 3:28-29 and 1 Peter 2:4-5 (where Peter is quoting Exodus and applying it to the church) asking not accusing looking for a real answer God Bless

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Galatians 3:28-29)

When writing the book of Galatians Paul was combating the error of Judaizers, legalists who believed that keeping the law and circumcision were necessary for salvation. Paul vehemently condemns such as message as "accursed" in Gal.1:8, but some had been drawn away by it. The Galatians (some of which had a Jewish background) needed to know that no matter what their background was, that they were one in Christ.

The original promise to Abraham was:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. (Genesis 12:2-3)

In some way "in thee all the families of the earth shall be blessed." Of course that is through Jesus Christ, and ultimately all who believe him. Abraham becomes the father not only of the nation of Israel but the spiritual father of all who believe on Christ. That does not give the gentile any claim to being a Jew or an Israelite, and does not do away with the nation of Israel. It is only a spiritual application.

To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. (1 Peter 2:4-5)
--This passage is written to believers showing how we are one in Christ; chosen of God, and have a special purpose on this earth. We believe in the priesthood of the believer--that every individual is a priest before God as opposed to the Levitical system, and as priests we offer up our own sacrifices, spiritual sacrifices, many of them mentioned throughout the NT--sacrifice of praise, of thanksgiving, your bodies a living sacrifice (Rom.12:1), etc. The passage has nothing to do with the Jewish nation.

In verse 6 there is a quote from the OT, but that only reaffirms that Christ is the rock of our salvation, the cornerstone of our faith--a stumbling block for the Jews; but we who believe on him shall never be confounded. These are great and wonderful promises about our standing in Christ.