Were theElect always Sheeps, and not Goats at all?

[Van]

When we were conceived in iniquity, thus made sinners, we came into the world as a lost sheep without a shepherd. We were children of wrath, condemned already because of unbelief, we were not a people, and had not received mercy. Those of us who heard and learned from the Father fully trusted in Christ and if and after our faith was credited by God as righteousness , God chose us individually and placed us in Christ. Thus we were "rich in faith" and among those who "love God." Conditional Election is presented by James 2:5, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 1 Corinthians 1:26-30, and is supported by Ephesians 2:3 and 1 Peter 2:9-10!

 

[Yeshua1]

No scripture ever calls the lost goats. Full Stop

Jesus separates the sheep out from the goats?

 

[Reformed1689]

When we were conceived in iniquity, thus made sinners, we came into the world as a lost sheep without a shepherd. We were children of wrath, condemned already because of unbelief, we were not a people, and had not received mercy. Those of us who heard and learned from the Father fully trusted in Christ and if and after our faith was credited by God as righteousness , God chose us individually and placed us in Christ. Thus we were "rich in faith" and among those who "love God." Conditional Election is presented by James 2:5, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 1 Corinthians 1:26-30, and is supported by Ephesians 2:3 and 1 Peter 2:9-10!

Do you realize that just the phrase "conditional election" necessitates some sort of work on the part of man? Like salvation is a prize to be one if you satisfy the requirements? In other words, you have to work for it. That's not taught in Scripture at all, and definitely not in any of the passages you cited.

 

[Yeshua1]

Do you realize that just the phrase "conditional election" necessitates some sort of work on the part of man? Like salvation is a prize to be one if you satisfy the requirements? In other words, you have to work for it. That's not taught in Scripture at all, and definitely not in any of the passages you cited.

If it was based upon anything other then God, how could we really be eternally secured then?

 

[Reformed1689]

If it was based upon anything other then God, how could we really be eternally secured then?

I think that is the major problem of free-will theology. Some people like to have their cake and eat it too, meaning, they believe it is up to us to believe of our own free-will, but then they also want eternal security. If free-will is absolute in the way that they say, they cannot adhere to eternal security because we should be equally able to give our salvation back.

 

[Yeshua1]

I think that is the major problem of free-will theology. Some people like to have their cake and eat it too, meaning, they believe it is up to us to believe of our own free-will, but then they also want eternal security. If free-will is absolute in the way that they say, they cannot adhere to eternal security because we should be equally able to give our salvation back.

Those holding to free will Gospel and to conditional security are the consistent ones!

 

[37818]

I am of the view point "sheep" and "goats" refers to one:s final state. All are lost once one comes of age to the need to be born again.

 

[Van]

Jesus separates the sheep out from the goats?

Yet another deflection avoiding the issue. Jesus did not separate the sheep from the goats in the verse, just read it. He separated the saved from the lost as an actual shepherd would separate actual sheep from actual goats.

 

[Van]

Do you realize that just the phrase "conditional election" necessitates some sort of work on the part of man? Like salvation is a prize to be one if you satisfy the requirements? In other words, you have to work for it. That's not taught in Scripture at all, and definitely not in any of the passages you cited.

Please accept the truth of scripture. You should know Paul taught faith is not works.

 

[Reformed1689]

Please accept the truth of scripture. You should know Paul taught faith is not works.

Paul also taught faith is given to us and that we are chosen before we have faith.

 

[Yeshua1]

Please accept the truth of scripture. You should know Paul taught faith is not works.

true, as paul knew that saving faith comes as a gift from God towards his own elect in Christ!

 

[Van]

Paul also taught faith is given to us and that we are chosen before we have faith.

Paul does not teach our pre-salvation faith is given to us. Full Stop

 

[Van]

true, as paul knew that saving faith comes as a gift from God towards his own elect in Christ!

Utter bogus assertion, misrepresenting the very words of scripture. "Saving faith" is our faith that God credits as righteousness, Romans 4:4-5 and Romans 4:23-24.

 

[Rippon2]

Hasn't anyone noticed the weird title of this thread? It's 'sheep' whether in the plural or singular. In this case
it's the former. There is no such word as 'sheeps.'

 

[Yeshua1]

Utter bogus assertion, misrepresenting the very words of scripture. "Saving faith" is our faith that God credits as righteousness, Romans 4:4-5 and Romans 4:23-24.

Sheeps are those who have Jesus as their shepherd, did we have Him as such while lost?

 

[Van]

Sheeps are those who have Jesus as their shepherd, did we have Him as such while lost?

Yet another utterly false statement, all like sheep have gone astray. Some of the sheep (mankind) are "of My sheep" and are therefore open and receptive to God's word. Those that enter the fold become "My sheep."
(Or the sheep that hear His voice and follow Him.)

Jer 50:6
“My people have become lost sheep;
Their shepherds have led them astray.
They have made them turn aside on the mountains;
They have gone along from mountain to hill
And have forgotten their resting place.

 

[JonC]

Matthew 25:31–46: "But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. Before him all the nations will be gathered, and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

 

[kyredneck]

Were the elect ever in a lost spiritual state then? if yes, had to be goats at that time, as dead in sin, and not in a relationship with God!

True or false?:
24 But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost goats of the house of Israel. Mt 15

 

[kyredneck]

We "were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Paul also revealed:
15 But when it was the good pleasure of God, who separated me, even from my mother`s womb, and called me through his grace, Gal 1

I'm confident that in God's mind Paul was always a 'vessel of mercy afore prepared unto glory', and never a 'vessel of wrath', both of which were made from the same lump.

 

[Van]

Everyone (including Paul) is conceived in iniquity. Everyone (including Paul) was made a sinner due to the Fall. Everyone by nature is a child of wrath, including Paul. God desires all men (including Paul) to be saved.
God"s plan for Paul included Paul's choice to trust in Christ. But that choice was made by persuasion, not compulsion.