Were there any Humans on Earth before Adam/Eve?

[Christos doulos]

Here is a short list on considering a gap.

1) One of the greatest characteristics of God is that He is The Creator, and because God could never create what is void and without form (tohuw and bohuw) it obliges that something certainly must have occurred.
2) Assuming a Gap does NOT assume acceptance of evolution.
3) The use the word "became" for "hayah" which it can be used and which is one of the definitions of "was" as something that has taken place. Example: The church was dark when the lights were turned out. Same use as in Isaiah 45:18 and Genesis 2:7. The purity of the poetry must be held and to do so does indicate a change of "be" or "being" (am, is, are, was, were).
4) It is no threat to the literal six day creation for a day is not reckoned by the stars, moon and sun (as some who hold a six day creation stumble over) but upon the rotation of the planet one complete turn. Irregardless of the rest of the universe the day is still 24 hours for the earth's rotation is that length. One does not hold a mars day as the same day length as earth's day.
5) There is no need to reorganize and lengthen the six days as some would in what others might consider a manipulation to fit some timeline. A day is a day the same as our day is a day. The 1000 years is then held as it should be as illustrative of God using time, not being held to time.
​

My friend. This is speculative at best, and your use of scripture is a stretch. It is true a day is not reckoned by stars, moon and sun, but it is reckoned by light and darkness just as scripture says.

My friend. Ultimately your claim is that you can hold to 6 literal days and billions of years at the same time. This is not logical. More like post modern physics.

 

[revmwc]

I intend to only make one post on joining of the two and would state that some do not discern the two can be joined which may be unfortunate.

The problem is usually found in thinking the gap occurred during the " six days of creation." That's just not true.

Here is a short list on considering a gap.

1) One of the greatest characteristics of God is that He is The Creator, and because God could never create what is void and without form (tohuw and bohuw) it obliges that something certainly must have occurred.
2) Assuming a Gap does NOT assume acceptance of evolution.
3) The use the word "became" for "hayah" which it can be used and which is one of the definitions of "was" as something that has taken place. Example: The church was dark when the lights were turned out. Same use as in Isaiah 45:18 and Genesis 2:7. The purity of the poetry must be held and to do so does indicate a change of "be" or "being" (am, is, are, was, were).
4) It is no threat to the literal six day creation for a day is not reckoned by the stars, moon and sun (as some who hold a six day creation stumble over) but upon the rotation of the planet one complete turn. Irregardless of the rest of the universe the day is still 24 hours for the earth's rotation is that length. One does not hold a mars day as the same day length as earth's day.
5) There is no need to reorganize and lengthen the six days as some would in what others might consider a manipulation to fit some timeline. A day is a day the same as our day is a day. The 1000 years is then held as it should be as illustrative of God using time, not being held to time.
​

I think I will stop at this point, and let the argument(s) continue by others.

I was taught the Gap theory this way. The Gap is between Genesis 1:1 AND1:2. A period of unknown time between the beginning and the re-creation as Larkin and others believe. Dr. DeHaan wrought several books on the subject. He had on called the Ice Age. I was taught that during this period of the Gap Satan fell and was sent to earth with a third of his angels. God placed ice upon the earth and thus all animal life died and we now have the fossil fuels because God used this period to provide for mans needs. Then God created man xxxxxxx number of time later.
Problems abound with this theory. First sin is said to have entered the world when man sinned not satan by scripture. Second the number 7 is specific in it's reference to spiritual things, it represents spiritual completion.
Next Genesis 1:1 says in the Beginning, what beginning? Beginning of time for man or beginning of the age of the earth, you must make that distinction.
Did God create the earth without the moon and stars?
Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

If there is a gap no life forms would have existed the earth could not have sustained life because the Sun, Moon and stars were not created until the
4th day according to scripture verses 17 and 18, God set them in the firmament in heaven to give light upon the earth and to rule over the day and over the night. If the Gap existed it served no purpose in Glorifying God and His creation.
I taught the Gap theory for many years until I studied Scientific Creationism and The Beginnings under attack. both excellent books on the subject.

God created the Earth to sustain light for man and according to scripture He did it in 6 literal 24 hour days and rested the 7th.

 

[agedman]

My friend. This is speculative at best, and your use of scripture is a stretch. A day may not be reckoned by stars, moon and sun, but is reckoned by light and darkness just like scripture says.

I have a slight delay in leaving, so I can respond.

DID I NOT STATE that a day is reckoned by the sun, moon, and stars but that a day is determined solely upon the ROTATION of the earth?

Did you not read that I stated the length of one day has always been 24 hours.

It is easy to consider it all speculative when you offer nothing in rebuttal but speculation.

That wasn't what I offered.

I didn't stretch the scriptures, rather showed consistency.

If you want to argue about the matter, consider:

1) What was offered as the appropriate meaning of the words.
2) What was showed as consistency with the character and nature of God.
3) What was demonstrated by reference to Isaiah, Geneses, and implication in Peter (to show how some who would apply it to Genesis are wrong.​

Don't merely speculate, show some proof.

 

[Christos doulos]

My friend.

 

[Christos doulos]

If you want to argue about the matter, consider:

1) What was offered as the appropriate meaning of the words.
2) What was showed as consistency with the character and nature of God.
3) What was demonstrated by reference to Isaiah, Geneses, and implication in Peter (to show how some who would apply it to Genesis are wrong.​

My friend. Is this not speculating? How about 4) What scripture clearly states, 1 day, 2 days, 3 days ...... (notice the number next to "yom" day) If you read the bible without any preconceived ideas or presuppositions, then 6 days is clear. What you are telling me is, what looks like 6 days really isn't 6 days which proves to me that you are allowing outside sources influence your way of interpreting scripture.

My friend. I apologize if I am not understanding you, maybe "reckoned" is a word I am not familiar with. I thought you were saying, that a day does not depend on the stars, moon and sun which I agree with you, because the bible never states that. The bible says, light and darkness (no light) made a day.

Let's just cut to the chase. Please answer me this. Are you saying, that one can believe in 6 literal 24 hour days of creation and billions of years at the same time?

 

[InTheLight]

My friend. Is this not speculating? How about 4) What scripture clearly states, 1 day, 2 days, 3 days ...... (notice the number next to "yom" day) If you read the bible without any preconceived ideas or presuppositions, then 6 days is clear. What you are telling me is, what looks like 6 days really isn't 6 days which proves to me that you are allowing outside sources influence your way of interpreting scripture.

Before Day 4 when the sun was created there was no way to demarcate a 24 hour day/night.

James 1: 17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

 

[Christos doulos]

Before Day 4 when the sun was created there was no way to demarcate a 24 hour day/night.

James 1: 17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

My friend. That is not correct.

(Genesis 1:3) "And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light."

You don't need the sun, moon and starts to designate a 24 hour day. You only need light and God created it from the beginning.

(Genesis 1:4-5)
"And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day."

 

[DaChaser1]

This question seems simple at first, no of course not. But next we ask if primates were part of God's creation, and again the answer is simple, yes.

But here is where it gets tricky, are we old earth Christians, where the days of creation are indeterminate spans of time, or are we young earth Christians, where the days of creation are twenty four hours long. We can nullify those verses that seem to say the creation period lasted long enough for fruit to set by saying God created those things with apparent age.

OTOH, if the creation days are indeterminate spans of time, then primates with abilities beyond those of a three year old human might have existed. Who knows, all this is pure speculation and not supported or proven wrong by scripture.

When God made Adam from the dust of the earth, could that not refer to replacing an animal spirit in a primate with a human spirit in the image of God? Who knows, pure speculation. If so, this might explain the human like artifacts that seem to be older than 6000 years ago, which about the time the bible suggests for the creation of Adam.

As for me, I go with Job 38, and humbly say I was not there and I do not know how God did it, only that He did.

Could all those other "humans" part of the group that God killed off during GreatFlood?

Could some have survived and co mingled and breed with "reguklar" humans?

Could any still be alive today, and would jesus be their Saviour also?

 

[revmwc]

My friend. That is not correct.

(Genesis 1:3) "And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light."

You don't need the sun, moon and starts to designate a 24 hour day. You only need light and God created it from the beginning.

(Genesis 1:4-5)
"And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day."

You missed:
Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

God didn't place the life sustaining light in place nor set it in the firmament until the 4th day. The growth process for the plants needed the day and night lights, those were not accomplished until the fourth day. Even if the days were long periods of time the plants created on the 3rd day would need the light cycle in order to live. So the Sun, Moon and Stars had to be set in the firmament in order for them to continue to live.
As the Sun and moon orbit around the earth with the other planets we see the cycle of years. With the Earth stationary it rotates on the axis in revolutions, the revolutions count as a 24 hour cycle. So one day is based on the earths rotation on its axis, no light is needed for that to occur.

 

[Christos doulos]

You missed:
Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

God didn't place the life sustaining light in place nor set it in the firmament until the 4th day. The growth process for the plants needed the day and night lights, those were not accomplished until the fourth day. Even if the days were long periods of time the plants created on the 3rd day would need the light cycle in order to live. So the Sun, Moon and Stars had to be set in the firmament in order for them to continue to live.
As the Sun and moon orbit around the earth with the other planets we see the cycle of years. With the Earth stationary it rotates on the axis in revolutions, the revolutions count as a 24 hour cycle. So one day is based on the earths rotation on its axis, no light is needed for that to occur.

Are you sure the sun orbits around the earth??

My friend. This is stretching. What does life "sustaining" light have to do with it being or not being an ordinary 24 hr day?

Light is a marker to indicate an ordinary day, as the bible emphatically states-He separated light from darkness. Light traveling in one direction towards a rotating earth.

 

[revmwc]

Are you sure the sun orbits around the earth??

My friend. This is stretching. What does life "sustaining" light have to do with it being or not being an ordinary 24 hr day?

Light is a marker to indicate an ordinary day, as the bible emphatically states.

Until 1543 with Capernicus Helocentric theory the Greeks, Chinese and most people groups believed in a Geocentric theory of the Sun and Planets revolved around the earth. Galileo and Capernicus developed the Helocentric system that most sceintist believe today.

Geocentricity models align more with scripture such as the Genesis verses that the Earth was in place then God set the light of the Sun, moon and Stars in place.
I will need to get to my notes on the Geocentric back up but it is a very plausible theory.

 

[Christos doulos]

Until 1543 with Capernicus Helocentric theory the Greeks, Chinese and most people groups believed in a Geocentric theory of the Sun and Planets revolved around the earth. Galileo and Capernicus developed the Helocentric system that most sceintist believe today.

Geocentricity models align more with scripture such as the Genesis verses that the Earth was in place then God set the light of the Sun, moon and Stars in place.
I will need to get to my notes on the Geocentric back up but it is a very plausible theory.

My friend. We must use scripture rightly to create scientific models. We must not use scientific models to interpret scripture.

 

[agedman]

My friend. Is this not speculating? How about 4) What scripture clearly states, 1 day, 2 days, 3 days ...... (notice the number next to "yom" day) If you read the bible without any preconceived ideas or presuppositions, then 6 days is clear. What you are telling me is, what looks like 6 days really isn't 6 days which proves to me that you are allowing outside sources influence your way of interpreting scripture.

My friend. I apologize if I am not understanding you, maybe "reckoned" is a word I am not familiar with. I thought you were saying, that a day does not depend on the stars, moon and sun which I agree with you, because the bible never states that. The bible says, light and darkness (no light) made a day.

Let's just cut to the chase. Please answer me this. Are you saying, that one can believe in 6 literal 24 hour days of creation and billions of years at the same time?

I'm back and short answer is:

Yep.

So, answer these:

Did God create all (things) with purpose and plan?

Is God light and in Him no darkness?

Would God create "without form (tohuw), and void (bohuw); and darkness (choshek)?

How long did God move across the deep in darkness?

Why would someone assume that there was rotation of what was without form and void?

If there is no form, there is no ability of sequential rotation in which a starting and ending can be determined.

That was all done before first of the six days were started.

The first day started with the proclamation, "Let there be light." Then God separated the light and dark and that was the first day.

There was no "heavenly glow" or aura, but the signification that a Savior spoke and new order out of chaos was created.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men."​

There is NO conflict between the gap and six literal days of creation.

 

[revmwc]

My friend. We must use scripture rightly to create scientific models. We must not use scientific models to interpret scripture.

The scripture says God set the Sun, Moon and Stars in place on the 4th day, that would be after the earth was created. Geocentricity is seen in that statement Scripture rightly viewed shows a geocentric model. To make scripture align with the Heliocentric model one would have God to set the Sun in the Firmament first not second. Scripture rightly interpreted says the Earth existed prior to the Sun so how can the Earth Rotate around the Sun?

In case you wonder what ancient well known person believed in the Geocentric model I'll give you one, Ptolemy developed a model of the geocentric view long before Capernicus and Galileo developed the current Heliocentric model and accepted view.

 

[matt wade]

The scripture says God set the Sun, Moon and Stars in place on the 4th day, that would be after the earth was created. Geocentricity is seen in that statement Scripture rightly viewed shows a geocentric model. To make scripture align with the Heliocentric model one would have God to set the Sun in the Firmament first not second. Scripture rightly interpreted says the Earth existed prior to the Sun so how can the Earth Rotate around the Sun?

Why exactly did the Sun need to placed first? Are you saying that God has the power to create the earth and sun, yet he can't hold things in place for a couple of days? He needs the sun in place to keep the earth where it needs to be?

 

[Van]

Reply to DaChaser1,

Could all those other "humans" part of the group that God killed off during GreatFlood?

Could some have survived and co mingled and breed with "reguklar" humans?

Could any still be alive today, and would jesus be their Saviour also?

To repeat, no humans created in the image of God existed before Adam was created by God. The Bible suggests this happen about 6000 years ago.

Two, all humans are physical descendants of Adam and Eve, they are no "non-Adamic" humans ever.

In my speculation, which is not supported by the bible, I suggested non-human primates might have existed, i.e Neanderthals, before God created Adam. But then I said none of this speculation reflected what the bible said, and therefore the only biblical position is to stick with what the Bible says, and it says we do not know!!!!!!

If anyone actually does a study of the meaning of the Hebrew word translated dust, what will they discover?

 

[revmwc]

I'm back and short answer is:

Yep.

So, answer these:

Did God create all (things) with purpose and plan?

Is God light and in Him no darkness?

Would God create "without form (tohuw), and void (bohuw); and darkness (choshek)?

How long did God move across the deep in darkness?

Why would someone assume that there was rotation of what was without form and void?

If there is no form, there is no ability of sequential rotation in which a starting and ending can be determined.

That was all done before first of the six days were started.

The first day started with the proclamation, "Let there be light." Then God separated the light and dark and that was the first day.

There was no "heavenly glow" or aura, but the signification that a Savior spoke and new order out of chaos was created.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men."​

There is NO conflict between the gap and six literal days of creation.

But there is in the fact that the gap theory teaches that death came before man sinned. Man sinned and death came into the world.
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

The Gap Theorist propose the pre-historic animals died to form the fossil record. But the Holy Spirit through Paul says death came by sin. The first animal died after sin.

Gen. 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them

Before you say man ate meat prior to this notice Gen. 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Notice that man and animals ate only of the fruit of the trees and the green herbs were for the animals. So man and animals did not see death prior to sin entering the world. This would indicate no gap in the time unless one holds that nothing existed on earth until the creation of Genesis 1:2 and following.

One question why would we need the Gap theory if nothing existed prior to the creation of Gen. 1 what purpose would it serve?

 

[revmwc]

Why exactly did the Sun need to placed first? Are you saying that God has the power to create the earth and sun, yet he can't hold things in place for a couple of days? He needs the sun in place to keep the earth where it needs to be?

The Earth is said to rotate around the Sun would not the Sun need to be in place in order for the Earth to orbit around it? God could have had it all out of order and disorganized you are correct, but doesn't scripture show us a God who has things in order.

Genesis 1 says in verse two that the earth was (Hayah) exist with out form (Tohuw) empty space and void (Bohuw) empty. The earth was empty and a wilderness. So the earth existed in emptiness and was empty. That would mean it existed without life and was empty. Nothing that it didn't have some order to it but that it existed by itself as an empty wilderness and it was in darkness (Chosek) obscurity. It existed in an obscure, empty wilderness that would pretty much indicate nothing else existed around it or even near it. Does not God do things in an orderly fashion and so he created the Earth first?
Then on the fourth day He created the Sun, Moon and Stars and they would therefore rotate around the first creation the earth.

 

[agedman]

In order to address your approach, I figured to trim your post and answer some of your points.

I was taught the Gap theory this way. The Gap is between Genesis 1:1 AND1:2. A period of unknown time between the beginning and the re-creation as Larkin and others believe. Dr. DeHaan wrought several books on the subject.... Then God created man xxxxxxx number of time later.
Problems abound with this theory.

First sin is said to have entered the world when man sinned not satan by scripture.

Why?

Seems that when Satan was found with iniquity that was when both heaven and earth became polluted by his presence.

If you desire to use Romans 5:12 as a support for man's fall bringing sin, then you would be supporting the thinking that Christ's death took "away all sin." (1 John 2:2). Such thinking would do away with hell, heaven and even the fallen angels would be saved from their appointed fate in the Lake of Fire.

But, because that is a false belief, the "world" then of Romans 5 must also fall under the same limits.

Second the number 7 is specific in it's reference to spiritual things, it represents spiritual completion.

So? We all have some understanding of numerology. Some do more with it than others. I am not certain that going down that road would be supportive to your statements.

Next Genesis 1:1 says in the Beginning, what beginning?

Pretty self evident what the beginning is.

Is there a start before God?

What is "time" to God?

Where is the start of God?

Man doesn't comprehend the eternal aspect of always was, is and will be. So, what makes mere man think that God didn't have other creative work before this earth?

Is it because we would box God into what we can comprehend?

Those are all rhetorical questions, no need to answer. The answer shows the foolishness of how some approach the subject from a myopic perspective. At least you have a more understanding of the topic.

Did God create the earth without the moon and stars?

He certainly could have. It wouldn't have been much of a problem for God.

If there is a gap no life forms would have existed the earth could not have sustained life because the Sun, Moon and stars were not created until the
4th day according to scripture verses 17 and 18, God set them in the firmament in heaven to give light upon the earth and to rule over the day and over the night.

And this is supported by what reasoning?

God having placed all the vegetation upon the earth one day, couldn't have sustained the life for the next day. The sun, moon and stars, have no life in them self. They do not rule over the day and night to "sustain life." The scriptures teach that Christ is the life giver and sustains all things. (Col 1:17)

If the Gap existed it served no purpose in Glorifying God and His creation.
I taught the Gap theory for many years until I studied Scientific Creationism and The Beginnings under attack. both excellent books on the subject.

God created the Earth to sustain light for man and according to scripture He did it in 6 literal 24 hour days and rested the 7th.

I agree.

There is no purpose of the preexistence in Glorifying God and His creation for THIS era of existence.

BUT that doesn't mean that it didn't exist, nor that there is evidence of the existence.

For one to assume that nothing existed before this present era involving humankind made in His image is a denial of one of the fundamental characteristics of God being the Creator.

Just because the Revelations closes the door on the present time view of eternity has no bearing upon God's creative work being manifested in whatever He chooses after revelations.

There really is no significant evidence that I have seen in your post that would not allow for the gap and a literal 6 day creation.

 

[agedman]

To repeat, no humans created in the image of God existed before Adam was created by God. The Bible suggests this happen about 6000 years ago.

Two, all humans are physical descendants of Adam and Eve, they are no "non-Adamic" humans ever.

In my speculation, which is not supported by the bible, I suggested non-human primates might have existed, i.e Neanderthals, before God created Adam. But then I said none of this speculation reflected what the bible said, and therefore the only biblical position is to stick with what the Bible says, and it says we do not know!!!!!!

If anyone actually does a study of the meaning of the Hebrew word translated dust, what will they discover?

I agree.

Can you believe that you and I actually agree!