Were There Non-Catholic Churches Before Protestants?

[Walter]

Were There Non-Catholic Churches Before Protestants?

I came right to the end of the now last page.

Therefore - Don't know if anyone mentioned the Waldensians aka the Vaudois aka The People of the Piedmont Valley.
Surely someone must have.

Many many years ago when I lived in the Boston suburbs I began a research paper on the Waldenses.
Though I was not a Harvard Graduate they allowed me to use their research libraries (unparalleled except maybe for dead German Institutes) to do my work.

Organized by Peter Waldo in the 10th century they pre-existed Waldo by centuries.
The Roman Catholic Church committed their worst autocracies upon these people - even greater IMO than the Roman and Spanish Inquisitions.

Health issues kept me from completion but here is a good starting point:



Waldensian History

Lets look at the Waldenses Confession of Faith:

"In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and of the Blessed and Ever-Virgin Mary. Be it noted by all the faithful that I, Valdesius, and all my brethren, standing before the Holy Gospels, do declare that we believe with all our hearts, having been grasped by faith, that we profess openly that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three Persons, one God....

"We firmly believe and explicitly declare that the incarnation of the Divinity did not take place in the Father and the Holy Spirit, but solely in the Son, so that he who was the divine Son of God the Father was also true man from his Mother.

"We believe one Church, Catholic, Holy, Apostolic and Immaculate, apart from which no one can be saved, and in the sacraments therein administered through the invisible and incomprehensible power of the Holy Spirit, sacraments which may be rightly administered by a sinful priest....

"We firmly believe in the judgment to come and in the fact that each man will receive reward or punishment according to what he has done in this flesh. We do not doubt the fact that alms, sacrifice, and other charitable acts are able to be of assistance to those who die.

"And since, according to the Apostle James, faith without works is dead, we have renounced this world and have distributed to the poor all that we possess, according to the will of God, and we have decided that we ourselves should be poor in such a way as not to be careful for the morrow, and to accept from no one gold, silver, or anything else, with the exception of raiment and daily food. We have set before ourselves the objective of fulfilling the Gospel counsels as precepts.

"We believe that anyone in this age who keeps to a proper life, giving alms and doing other good works from his own possessions and observing the precepts from the Lord, can be saved.

"We make this declaration in order that if anyone should come to you affirming that he is one of us, you may know for certain that he is not one of us if he does not profess this same faith." [

Sound like any Baptist you know?

The movement did not seek to alter Catholic dogma and was not intended to be a separatist church. The bishops at first would have found nothing about which to object had not the Waldenses assumed the right to preach. It was unauthorized preaching in public places that aroused suspicion and led the Archbishop of Lyons to attempt to stop them.

 

[HankD]

Lets look at the Waldenses Confession of Faith:

"In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and of the Blessed and Ever-Virgin Mary. Be it noted by all the faithful that I, Valdesius, and all my brethren, standing before the Holy Gospels, do declare that we believe with all our hearts, having been grasped by faith, that we profess openly that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three Persons, one God....

"We firmly believe and explicitly declare that the incarnation of the Divinity did not take place in the Father and the Holy Spirit, but solely in the Son, so that he who was the divine Son of God the Father was also true man from his Mother.

"We believe one Church, Catholic, Holy, Apostolic and Immaculate, apart from which no one can be saved, and in the sacraments therein administered through the invisible and incomprehensible power of the Holy Spirit, sacraments which may be rightly administered by a sinful priest....

"We firmly believe in the judgment to come and in the fact that each man will receive reward or punishment according to what he has done in this flesh. We do not doubt the fact that alms, sacrifice, and other charitable acts are able to be of assistance to those who die.

"And since, according to the Apostle James, faith without works is dead, we have renounced this world and have distributed to the poor all that we possess, according to the will of God, and we have decided that we ourselves should be poor in such a way as not to be careful for the morrow, and to accept from no one gold, silver, or anything else, with the exception of raiment and daily food. We have set before ourselves the objective of fulfilling the Gospel counsels as precepts.

"We believe that anyone in this age who keeps to a proper life, giving alms and doing other good works from his own possessions and observing the precepts from the Lord, can be saved.

"We make this declaration in order that if anyone should come to you affirming that he is one of us, you may know for certain that he is not one of us if he does not profess this same faith." [

Sound like any Baptist you know?

Excuse me Walter. Read the banner of the O/P:

Were There Non-Catholic Churches Before Protestants?

Do you see the word Baptist there Walter?
Did I say they were Baptists?

 

[Walter]

Excuse me Walter. Read the banner of the O/P:

Were There Non-Catholic Churches Before Protestants?

Do you see the word Baptist there Walter?
Did I say they were Baptists?

Except for some error, I think they were Catholic to the core. From my above post: 'The movement did not seek to alter Catholic dogma and was not intended to be a separatist church. The bishops at first would have found nothing about which to object had not the Waldenses assumed the right to preach. It was unauthorized preaching in public places that aroused suspicion and led the Archbishop of Lyons to attempt to stop them.'

 

[HankD]

Look Walter - as a former Catholic I know false charges are brought against the RCC.
But there are many charges that are undeniable because of historic evidence.

The Waldensian history is one such people who were hounded and slaughtered by the RCC.

I am not blaming anybody but the hierarchy of the RCC church in those centuries in which they reigned and did the bloodshed.

Relax brother.

 

[HankD]

Except for some error, I think they were Catholic to the core. From my above post: 'The movement did not seek to alter Catholic dogma and was not intended to be a separatist church. The bishops at first would have found nothing about which to object had not the Waldenses assumed the right to preach. It was unauthorized preaching in public places that aroused suspicion and led the Archbishop of Lyons to attempt to stop them.'

Yes, Many many of them were "Catholic" but would not bow the knee to the pope..

Some were not and those were they who brought the wrath of Rome down upon them.

Read about them. Do a Google trail.

 

[HankD]

John Milton (1608-1674 Paradise Lost) dedicated a Sonnet to the massacre of Wadensian innocents in the Alpine Mountains.

On the Late Massacre in Piedmont

Avenge, O Lord, thy slaughtered saints, whose bones
Lie scattered on the Alpine mountains cold;
Even them who kept thy truth so pure of old,
When all our fathers worshiped stocks and stones,
Forget not: in thy book record their groans
Who were thy sheep, and in their ancient fold
Slain by the bloody Piedmontese, that rolled
Mother with infant down the rocks. Their moans
The vales redoubled to the hills, and they
To heaven. Their martyred blood and ashes sow
O'er all the Italian fields, where still doth sway
The triple Tyrant; that from these may grow
A hundredfold, who, having learnt thy way,
Early may fly the Babylonian woe.

John Milton, "On the Late Massacre in Piedmont"

 

[Adonia]

I believe what Jesus has said is referring to Himself, rather than His church.

Just your belief then, we believe differently.

 

[loDebar]

Except they were not like Baptist! Lets look at the Waldenses Confession of Faith:

"In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and of the Blessed and Ever-Virgin Mary. Be it noted by all the faithful that I, Valdesius, and all my brethren, standing before the Holy Gospels, do declare that we believe with all our hearts, having been grasped by faith, that we profess openly that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three Persons, one God....

"We firmly believe and explicitly declare that the incarnation of the Divinity did not take place in the Father and the Holy Spirit, but solely in the Son, so that he who was the divine Son of God the Father was also true man from his Mother.

"We believe one Church, Catholic, Holy, Apostolic and Immaculate, apart from which no one can be saved, and in the sacraments therein administered through the invisible and incomprehensible power of the Holy Spirit, sacraments which may be rightly administered by a sinful priest....

"We firmly believe in the judgment to come and in the fact that each man will receive reward or punishment according to what he has done in this flesh. We do not doubt the fact that alms, sacrifice, and other charitable acts are able to be of assistance to those who die.

"And since, according to the Apostle James, faith without works is dead, we have renounced this world and have distributed to the poor all that we possess, according to the will of God, and we have decided that we ourselves should be poor in such a way as not to be careful for the morrow, and to accept from no one gold, silver, or anything else, with the exception of raiment and daily food. We have set before ourselves the objective of fulfilling the Gospel counsels as precepts.

"We believe that anyone in this age who keeps to a proper life, giving alms and doing other good works from his own possessions and observing the precepts from the Lord, can be saved.

"We make this declaration in order that if anyone should come to you affirming that he is one of us, you may know for certain that he is not one of us if he does not profess this same faith." [

Sound like any Baptist you know?

yes, to me , what is your concern?

 

[loDebar]

My point is that the Catholic Church has not destroyed the evidence of these other heretical sects/teachings. Why just your Baptistic teachings? Heresies have been with us from the Church’s beginning. They even have been started by Church leaders, who were then corrected by councils and popes. Fortunately, we have Christ’s promise that heresies will never prevail against the Church, for he told Peter, "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18). The Church is truly, in Paul’s words, "the pillar and foundation of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15).

not man's church but the universal body of Christ

 

[Adonia]

and that particular side has a long history of killing those who disagree

Killings were done by both sides, with neither of them really following Jesus Christ and His teachings.

The Apostles clearly said what they said and no church father is needed to confirm that.

Yes they said what they said, and then it comes down to a particular interpretation of what they said.

[For what little it might be worth, I am a credobaptists who recognizes the historic evidence that infant baptism was wide spread by AD 200 and may have been practiced as far back as the First Century (although how common it was before AD 200 is strictly a matter of conjecture due to the darth of evidence one way or another from the period).]

You are brave to admit that.

The 1500's are not when we rejected the ideas of the church and substituted our own ... that is when people were finally able to read what the Apostles commanded for themselves and returned to obeying what they had commanded.

And then what happened? Not 20 years after this "Reformation" these Sola Scripture devotees were splitting off from each other, with each coming to know the "truth" that the other reused to recognize. Even then, most of the common man alive remained illiterate, relying on his particular Christian sects leader to provide his Christian instruction.

Show me the command to baptize unbelieving infants and I will obey Scripture.
Show me where the Bible says that Baptism is the new circumcision and I will believe it.
If God has not said it, then please do not fault me for refusing to believe it.

At this point in time, all is out there. From the Roman Catholic's, to the Eastern Orthodox, to the Baptist's, to the Mormons, the Lutherans - everyone has a particular take on the Christian way. You have the free will to discern for yourself which Christian faith tradition to follow, so I fault you not for your choice.

 

[TCassidy]

"We believe one Church, Catholic, Holy, Apostolic and Immaculate, apart from which no one can be saved, and in the sacraments therein administered through the invisible and incomprehensible power of the Holy Spirit, sacraments which may be rightly administered by a sinful priest....

Most Christians, including Baptists, believe in one universal, invisible church which is the body of Christ and apart from which no one can be saved. And those same people also believe the elements of the Lord's supper are rightly administered by sinful men, including baptism.

Not only does it sound Christian to me, it also sounds Baptist.

 

[loDebar]

"Catholic" just means universal

 

[Walter]

Most Christians, including Baptists, believe in one universal, invisible church which is the body of Christ and apart from which no one can be saved. And those same people also believe the elements of the Lord's supper are rightly administered by sinful men, including baptism.

Not only does it sound Christian to me, it also sounds Baptist.

Let's see, their creed declares that Mary is Ever Virgin, do Baptist believe that? Waldenses believed that SACRAMENTS are necessary to salvation, do Baptist believe that? As I posted before and what you are ignoring is the movement did not seek to radically alter Catholic dogma and was not intended to be a separatist church. The bishops at first would have found nothing about which to object had not the Waldenses assumed the right to preach. It was unauthorized preaching in public places that aroused suspicion and led the Archbishop of Lyons to attempt to stop them.

Waldenses | Catholic Answers

 

[Adonia]

"Catholic" just means universal

Yes, yes, One Universal (Catholic) Christian Church - and every other Christian faith tradition comes from it. We are bound together by the Savior, Our Lord Jesus Christ!

 

[HankD]

Let's see, their creed declares that Mary is Ever Virgin. Do Baptist believe that? Waldenses believed that SACRAMENTS are necessary to salvation, do Baptist believe that? Nor is there anything in their creed that states they believe in an 'invisible church' only. As I posted before and what you are ignoring is the movement did not seek to alter Catholic dogma one iota and was not intended to be a separatist church. The bishops at first would have found nothing about which to object had not the Waldenses assumed the right to preach. It was unauthorized preaching in public places that aroused suspicion and led the Archbishop of Lyons to attempt to stop them.

You are wrong in many areas Walter and you need to do some research. The history of the Waldenses has many wrinkles but they all would not bow the knee to the pope. Their doctrine was indeed "romish" but please note I gave my answer to the forum subtitle:

Were There Non-Catholic Churches Before Protestants?

My paper was on a graduate level though I never submitted it.
After 40 plus years I no longer have it in one piece but it will not take you long to find that they (Waldenses) renounced the pope, several of the "sacraments" many were NOT paedobaptists but held to "believers" baptism. They were missionary minded and memorized WHOLE BOOKS of the Bible (NT) evangelizing through the Alps.

The atrocity that caught the attention of the European world and gave incentive to John Milton's sonnet was that the emissaries of the pope threw pregnant Waldenses women off of the cliffs of the Alpine mountains to dash on the rocks below.

Here is Foxes Book of Martyrs online
FOX's Book of Martyrs

Read

Chapter VI. An Account of the Persecutions in Italy, Under the Papacy
Account of the Persecutions in the Valleys of Piedmont

 

[Walter]

You are wrong in many areas Walter and you need to do some research. The history of the Waldenses has many wrinkles but they all would not bow the knee to the pope. Their doctrine was indeed "romish" but please note I gave my answer to the forum subtitle:

Were There Non-Catholic Churches Before Protestants?

My paper was on a graduate level though I never submitted it.
After 40 plus years I no longer have it in one piece but it will not take you long to find that they (Waldenses) renounced the pope, several of the "sacraments" many were NOT paedobaptists but held to "believers" baptism. They were missionary minded and memorized WHOLE BOOKS of the Bible (NT) evangelizing through the Alps.

The atrocity that caught the attention of the European world and gave incentive to John Milton's sonnet was that the emissaries of the pope threw pregnant Waldenses women off of the cliffs of the Alpine mountains to dash on the rocks below.

I will look further into their history, Hank. Thanks for your input, brother.

 

[loDebar]

Yes, yes, One Universal (Catholic) Christian Church - and every other Christian faith tradition comes from it. We are bound together by the Savior, Our Lord Jesus Christ!

It means real believers, not just practioners

 

[HankD]

It means real believers, not just practioners

What's the difference?

 

[37818]

Actually, St. Paul himself said that it was the church of the living God that was the pillar and bulwark of the truth, not the Bible alone (see 1 Timothy 3:15).

Yeah. There are churches, so called, which deny those truths solely found in the New Testament (2 Timothy 3:15-17) Now the genuine church is made of believers who know God, which Paul says tp Timothy as to be an example, ". . . But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. . . ." The Apostle giving himself as an example to Timothy in this regard. And at that time the New Testament documents were yet being written. It is the word of God which the genuine believers have which makes them the ground of truth. Today it is the Bible, not just the Hebrew scriptures.

 

[utilyan]

It seems to me you do not understand.
The true church, the churches made up of individuals who comprise the body of Christ, individuals who know God through faith alone, in God's grace alone, in God's Christ alone according to God's written word alone. This being the Christian New Testament written by the Apostles and church prophets. That authority is not the church but the written word of God.

Indeed.

Now show me the bible verse that says/or teaches Scripture is the SOLE/ONLY authority.

My claim is this teaching is unbiblical and never taught by scripture.