Were There Non-Catholic Churches Before Protestants?

[utilyan]

2Ti 3:15

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16

¶
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and isprofitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17

That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Rev 22:18

¶
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

does this present an answer?

Yes it presents "don't add FAKE RULES that are not written out in scripture".

Show us the verse for this FAKE RULE that says Scripture is the ONLY AUTHORITY.



I invite you folks to look up the word PROFITABLE in a dictionary.......IT would be PROFITABLE if you understood its meaning.

It is also PROFITABLE to have good reading glasses when you read things.


It is profitable to have a nuclear generator to power one's house. But its not required.

 

[utilyan]

Rev says do not add or take away from this book. That mean the only authority

No it doesn't. it means exactly what it says don't add or take away from that book.

Find yourself someone who has a major in English. And have them explain the sentence to you.

The word AUTHORITY is not in there, The word ONLY is not in there.


"Scripture is the ONLY AUTHORITY" Is unbiblical. The bible does not teach this.

Hint: you can't even find a verse for what you would claim is the most important rule.

 

[loDebar]

no, it says add or take away anything.

ὠφέλιμος ōphélimos, o-fel'-ee-mos; from a form of G3786; helpful or serviceable, i.e. advantageous:—profit(-able).

The verse says all scripture is inspired, so we can understand it comes from God and God does not lie.

Num 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

so what is your grievance?

 

[loDebar]

No it doesn't. it means exactly what it says don't add or take away from that book.

Find yourself someone who has a major in English. And have them explain the sentence to you.

The word AUTHORITY is not in there, The word ONLY is not in there.


"Scripture is the ONLY AUTHORITY" Is unbiblical. The bible does not teach this.

Hint: you can't even find a verse for what you would claim is the most important rule.

verses shown, read them

 

[loDebar]

Heb 1:1¶
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds

and

1Co 14:37

If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

Jesus words

Jhn 12:46
I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
Jhn 12:47
And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Jhn 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Jhn 12:49
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Jhn 12:50
And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak

 

[utilyan]

no, it says add or take away anything.

ὠφέλιμος ōphélimos, o-fel'-ee-mos; from a form of G3786; helpful or serviceable, i.e. advantageous:—profit(-able).

The verse says all scripture is inspired, so we can understand it comes from God and God does not lie.

Num 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

so what is your grievance?

Scripture is absolutely true, God does not lie.


My grievance is YOU HAVE ADDED A FALSE DOCTRINE. You have added SOMETHING.

FALSE DOCTRINE------>>>>>Scripture is the ONLY AUTHORITY <<<<<-----FALSE DOCTRINE


Show me the bible verse or teaching that plainly states SCRIPTURE is the ONLY AUTHORITY.




Its like if I asked you to show me your BLUE CAR.

You answer back, Look it has wheels, it has an engine, it has steering wheel.

But you never get around to showing the color.

Please show me the color, Whats the reply i often get?

Do you hate cars? do you have a problem with engines? what do you have against wheels?

SHOW ME THE COLOR OF THE CAR!

The color is right here, all cars have profitable turn signals and look at these fancy seats.



Likewise you never get around to show me the verse that says the BIBLE is the ONLY AUTHORITY.

You show me that the bible is true, written by God, its honest, we should not add fake rules to it, its word of God, it looks pretty.

But you never get around to showing the color.

Give me that FAKE RULE everyone claims is there. Show me the verse where it says the bible is the only authority?

 

[HopefulNChrist]

Because Scripture being sole authority is UNBIBLICAL.

Why do you demand a UNBIBLICAL RULE?

Why do you claim its biblical and then PROVIDE NO VERSE TO BACK IT UP?

Scripture is helpful does NOT = Scripture is ONLY authority.

Jesus Christ is not dead, ask him yourself.

Let's say you hear a spirit saying he is Jesus Christ and this spirit is commanding you to kill someone. Can you use scripture to rebuke that spirit claiming to be God and that God has ordered Israelites to kill sinners like someone caught in adultery?

Sure you can. This is what we are talking about whereas presently scripture is the sole authority because they are His words and His judgments have been given in His words to discern spirits as well as false teaching being given by those in authority.

When Jesus comes as the Bridegroom, His words is the final authority just as His words in the scripture still is.

If God wrote a note that says "pick up your trash and do everything your mom says, I leave her in charge"

According to you, we only pick up trash. Mom has zero authority. She says go get some groceries, You say no We pick up trash alone. SOLA GARBAGO is what your pushing.

God in scripture gave authority to the church.

Not like that, He did not. If "Mom" telling us to do something that steps outside of His words of what God says... and He has said a lot in scripture for us to discern good and evil by them so there is nothing lacking, we can reprove "Mom" when she commands us to do something that runs contrary against His words. I am not saying about things that do not run contrary to His words, but to command us something that runs contrary to His words, then His words is sole authority in having the final say.

Mom can ask us to do other things as we are doing His command to pick up the trash, BUT if Moms says when you are done picking up the trash, I want you to spread it all over the place and pick it up again as He commanded. You better believe you would use His words to reprove her for commanding that since spreading trash is the opposite of picking up trash.

The very rule you push is That for something to be officially christian teaching scripture must declare it.

Therefore SHOW ME THIS RULE, ELSE its not Christian.

The rule you push cannot be apply when Jesus Christ is not here to give His authority which is given by His words.

You go back and forth between God and the Church as if the authority is the same, but it is not when the Church is subjected to the same Word of God as each believer is. Christ is the Head of every church and every believer; and the body is govern by His words, the scripture.

 

[loDebar]

Rev 1:3

Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

do not accept changes

Gal 1:6

¶
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7

Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9

As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

We have the authority (power) of scripture.

 

[loDebar]

What is added?

 

[HopefulNChrist]

2Ti 3:15

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16

¶
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and isprofitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17

That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Rev 22:18

¶
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

does this present an answer?

It is the answer I am giving; but @utilyan seem to believe that the Church has the same authority as God does so that their traditions can not be touched by the authority of scripture even though their errant doctrines can be reproved by scripture.

 

[utilyan]

Let's say you hear a spirit saying he is Jesus Christ and this spirit is commanding you to kill someone. Can you use scripture to rebuke that spirit claiming to be God and that God has ordered Israelites to kill sinners like someone caught in adultery?

Sure you can. This is what we are talking about whereas presently scripture is the sole authority because they are His words and His judgments have been given in His words to discern spirits as well as false teaching being given by those in authority.

When Jesus comes as the Bridegroom, His words is the final authority just as His words in the scripture still is.



Not like that, He did not. If "Mom" telling us to do something that steps outside of His words of what God says... and He has said a lot in scripture for us to discern good and evil by them so there is nothing lacking, we can reprove "Mom" when she commands us to do something that runs contrary against His words. I am not saying about things that do not run contrary to His words, but to command us something that runs contrary to His words, then His words is sole authority in having the final say.

Mom can ask us to do other things as we are doing His command to pick up the trash, BUT if Moms says when you are done picking up the trash, I want you to spread it all over the place and pick it up again as He commanded. You better believe you would use His words to reprove her for commanding that since spreading trash is the opposite of picking up trash.



The rule you push cannot be apply when Jesus Christ is not here to give His authority which is given by His words.

You go back and forth between God and the Church as if the authority is the same, but it is not when the Church is subjected to the same Word of God as each believer is. Christ is the Head of every church and every believer; and the body is govern by His words, the scripture.

"Can you use scripture to rebuke that spirit claiming to be God and that God has ordered Israelites to kill sinners like someone caught in adultery?

Sure you can. "


Indeed I am using scripture to rebuke your false doctrine. >>>>"scripture is the sole authority "

Show me the scripture that claims "scripture is the sole authority"

 

[utilyan]

It is the answer I am giving; but @utilyan seem to believe that the Church has the same authority as God does so that their traditions can not be touched by the authority of scripture even though their errant doctrines can be reproved by scripture.

I never said you can't correct anyone with scripture. You are going around the issue.

This is not biblical----->"SCRIPTURE IS THE ONLY AUTHORITY"


SOMETHING BEING true DOES NOT EQUAL= Only authority
You can correct folks DOES NOT EQUAL= ONLY AUTHORITY.

 

[loDebar]

It is the answer I am giving; but @utilyan seem to believe that the Church has the same authority as God does so that their traditions can not be touched by the authority of scripture even though their errant doctrines can be reproved by scripture.

The church as an organization is of man

 

[HopefulNChrist]

No because scripture does not list or claim what works of scripture is scripture. The BIBLE is a SET of 66 books. BIBLE literally means BOOKSSSSSS. None contain a table of contents that tell you what books belong in the bible, however plenty of new testament works will POINT to SEPTUAGINT, And TRADITION.

The bible did not fall out of the sky in English, it is a translation of Greek that was picked up from thousdands of manuscripts where PEOPLE OF THE CHURCH Picked out what they DEEM and authorized LEGIT.

You might use a King James bible, It is the AUTHORIZED BIBLE of the ANGLICAN CHURCH.
They had their priest look over thousands of documents and say this is scripture, this is scripture and this is scripture.

And since they were CATHOLIC and often still claim to be, WHY in the world would you use THEIR BOOK and not research with your own scholar YOUR OWN BIBLE?



Scripture could and does often help refute false doctrine...... case in point:

THE idea that scripture is the ONLY AUTHORITY ,<---MADE UP DOCTRINE

So basically, you are saying that the scripture has no real authority as you were arguing that no one can be sure the scripture we have is scripture.

If you say it does have authority, then it is the same as sole authority because those in authority cannot go against the authority of the scripture. Either scripture has authority or it does not. The Church does not have the same authority as God does when the Church is governed by the authority of the scripture.

It is like you are missing the forest for all the tree in seeing how scripture is the authority for everything God wants us to abide by

 

[HopefulNChrist]

Taking a break in leaving the ministry in His hands since only God can cause the increase.

 

[loDebar]

"Can you use scripture to rebuke that spirit claiming to be God and that God has ordered Israelites to kill sinners like someone caught in adultery?

Sure you can. "


Indeed I am using scripture to rebuke your false doctrine. >>>>"scripture is the sole authority "

Show me the scripture that claims "scripture is the sole authority"

God does not lie, God gave us All scripture. God is the authority, shown to us by scripture.

 

[Adonia]

The church as an organization is of man

The Church is an organization started by Jesus Christ. There had to be some form of authority for the newly emerging Christian faith, thus the Church. It started with the Apostles and then continued on after they all died.

The reality is Jesus did not say for his Apostles to just write a book and let the future Christians figure it all out for themselves. Nope, Jesus never said such a thing.

 

[Adonia]

God does not lie, God gave us All scripture. God is the authority, shown to us by scripture.

The Scriptures are authoritative, authority resides within the Church and it's leaders, the Bishops.

 

[Adonia]

It is the answer I am giving; but @utilyan seem to believe that the Church has the same authority as God does so that their traditions can not be touched by the authority of scripture even though their errant doctrines can be reproved by scripture.

No, what you call "errant doctrines" is just you making that determination through your own fallible interpretation. Why should anyone believe you?

 

[utilyan]

So basically, you are saying that the scripture has no real authority as you were arguing that no one can be sure the scripture we have is scripture.

If you say it does have authority, then it is the same as sole authority because those in authority cannot go against the authority of the scripture. Either scripture has authority or it does not. The Church does not have the same authority as God does when the Church is governed by the authority of the scripture.

It is like you are missing the forest for all the tree in seeing how scripture is the authority for everything God wants us to abide by

No. Scripture can and often does report authority and priority. GOD is #1 Authority. His commands are the priorities.


But you folks are adding in an extra doctrine, a claim that is never made by scripture. What is this claim?

"Scripture is the ONLY authority"


If you had a bible verse for this, you'd already would have cited it.

So your kinda stuck in a broken loop. Telling me scripture is TRUE, God wrote it, Its pretty, we shouldn't add things to it.

But you don't realize you are ADDING something to it.

You are saying the bible is only allowed to dictate itself as the authority, And yet it never does, it points to God and it points to the church.

And if you don't believe me.

SIMPLY tell me the bible verse where it PLAINLY SAYS. Scripture is the only authority.