Were they really saved?

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Since Jesus knows the heart of man from the beginning, is in to possible that the one who made a profession of faith really was not saved and proved it when committing suicide?

After all, even Judas was seen as saved amongst his companions up to the fateful night that he led the soldiers to the garden to arrest Jesus. The Book of Matthew records that Judas was not only a Disciple, but he was named as one of the twelve Apostles.

Jesus said in the book of Matthew that many would stand before the throne claiming to be his; claiming to have preached, cast out devils, and to have done many wonderful works in His name. And then He will profess, 'Depart from me, I never knew you, ye that work iniquity'.

Since the Word of God declares that no murderers will enter heaven, and that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him, I believe the person who commits suicide cannot be saved.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Duplicate Thread:

I beat him by four minutes at:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=36490

 

[Eric B]

Today is my birthday (thanx BB for the e-mail:wavey: ), and the party was yesterday, so I didn't have tome to get back to the other thread. I had no idea it would max out in that time.

@His Blood Spoke My Name

When you say a person can commit such an abominable sin as suicide and still go to heaven, you are saying they can do as they please.

In that case, if anybody who ever sinned still gets to Heaven, we must be teaching people can do as they please. OF course not! 2 Cor.5:19: "To know, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and has committed unto us the word of reconciliation". That is based on faith, not good deeds. All three of you (SFIC, HBSMN, Diggin) are supposed to be the more "fundamentalist" type (traditional music only, no alcohol, etc), but you are denying the fundamental point of the Gospel and sounding like the Catholics or Campbellists.

@SFIC
No one has 'blown away' our stand on suicides not going to heaven. They can't. Because the Word of God affirms that that suicides will not inherit the Kingdom. Suicides are murderers. Their place is the lake of fire.
You can try to dismiss this truth all you want, but you are denying the Word of God that will never pass away. His Word is forever settled in Heaven and will not be annulled.

You are taking one or two verses, and basically holding them in opposition to the rest of the scriptures, which qualify WHO in the end gets CHARGED as a "murderer". We give you these scriptures and their principles, and you ignore them and just repeat your prooftexts (and your assertion, like it were a 'given') as if we never responded.

Does the Word of God say all murderers will have their part in the lake of fire, or just some?

Uh, only SOME are going to the lake of fire! The rest were forgiven, as the verse above shows. Else, David, Paul, and every other Christian who even had so much as a hateful thought (all of us, really) are going too. The only difference, which becomes this new criteria you try to add, is they they will not be a live to make a specific prayer of repentance. But then, that is not what saves a person who has already accepted Christ, is it? I remember arguing this point with the Orthodox and Campbellists who were proselytizing here last year, insisting you must repent of every individual sin after you commit it to receive forgiveness, and they even tried to use 1 John 1:9 to supposedly prove that repentance and forgiveness is a one by one daily back and forth transaction. I think it should be alarming that you seem to agree with them.

God has brought to my attention through my years of serving Him many sins that I had forgotten... and I did indeed repent. And as I read His Word and walk with Him if the Spirit brings any more to light (it does reveal the hidden thoughts), I will indeed repent of those as well.

He will not let me die in sin if I am one of His.

And just like I asked with those other two groups, did you get every single one? IF not, then God must be letting people get away with sin, if your reasoning is correct.

@xdisciple
Very simple question. Did the people which jumped from the World Trade Center because they were totally terrified go to hell because they jumped? Was it really pride? Pride makes so much sense, it's incredible, you know?
I tell you how it was.
These people stood there and watched the fire coming closer and closer. No way to escape. And then they thought: Wow, I'm so proud. I will simply jump. Yeah right. They jumped and while they were jumping they were screaming at God and laughing and mocking him and thinking to themselves: Haha! I determine when and how I die.
Yes, I bet this is how it was. It was all about pride. Now I get it! These people were simply too damn proud to be burned alive. Oh yeah.
I bet some of them even put on new Mascara and make up while they were falling because they were so proud.

:thumbs: :applause: Notice how this point was completely skipped, and people just went back to the repeated prooftexting method!

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Notice by Judas' example that people can call themselves followers of Christ, Christians, or any other name to make themselves look good to man, but in murdering themselves they further prove that they were none of His? For no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

Their final action on this earth was to place their faith in something that could not save them.

 

[Eric B]

@Claudia T
I think its odd that people see things so extremely.
Like as in either God is some completely legalistic God who strains at gnats or else the other alternative is you can go around murdering people and still go to heaven with no repentence.

dont you guys know any middle ground

You guys would nullify every single Bible verse by taking it to the extreme and then claiming the entire thing is therefore useless then...

Thou shalt not kill
"Yeah but what if you accidentally kill a flea though?"

come onnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

I can just imagine you trying to stand in front of God saying that...

And what we have been saying IS the "middle ground", but your side chooses to ignore it and attempt to push us in to one of those "extremes", or the other, or both, even. (we're accusing God of being legalistic and straining at gnats if we don't believe certain OT commands are still in effect, but then we are teaching murder is OK because we believe (as the Bible teaches) that murder can be forgiven, even before the fact).

The people in the world trying to do all sorts of sin and get away with it are not trusting in, appealing to, or in any way thinking of, the substitutionary atonement of Christ. They usually are just rationalizing ("well, God will understand", or "what I'm doing is not that bad"; "I'm not killing anybody"; or if they did kill someone, "well, he deserved it", etc.) Nobody here is arguing that stuff, so these accusations are way off base, and actually an attack against the Blood of Christ as "justifying" lawlessness!
That then leads to this part of the discussion later on:

@Amy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Claudia_T
Heb:10:26: For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins
All sin is willful unless you believe that the Holy Spirit doesn't warn us BEFORE we commit the sin.
You left out some verses:
Hebrews 10:26-29
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace.

These verses are talking about the Jewish Christians falling back into following the law instead of the grace of Christ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Claudia_T
Amy,
NO... it is saying we have insulted God's grace if we think we can ABUSE His grace by going on living in SIN

That is NOT what it is saying. It is saying that if we depend on the law to save us we have trampled the Son of God underfoot and discounted His sacrifice.

Yes. They too accused the Christians of teaching "licence". The blood of Christ was therefore "counted as a unholy thing"--it apparently "lets sinners into Heaven", and therefore seen as contradicting scripture. Of course, the people saying that didn't understand their own sin, and how their supposed "good" was not making up for the bad.
But that is what is happening here all over again, and if anybody should be worrying about hell, it is those trusting in their lack of a certain amount, or class of sin to save them, and thus leveling such accusation at those who trust in the Blood.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Only some murderers are going to the lake of fire? That is contrary to God's Word. If they do not repent of their murders, they will go to the lake of fire. That is gospel. And suicide is not a sin one can repent or turn away from after the fact.

Jesus said in the Gospels: 'Except ye also repent, ye shall likewise perish.' Do you not think people have to repent of sin? To turn from sin unto God?

 

[rbell]

And suicide is not a sin one can repent or turn away from after the fact.

So if you died today, and there was an unconfessed sin in your life, would you go to hell?

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Deny it all you want, even try it if you wnat, but you will find that God's Word is true.

1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

No means No.

Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.

Thou shalt not means It is Forbidden!

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

All murderers means all, not some!

 

[Eric B]

You still aren't answering any of what we have shown, and just repeating your preconceived interpretations of proof-texts!
All "murderers" (by YOUR definition) are NOT going to the lake of fire, because many have had their murders covered by the blood of Christ. Does that nullify the scripture? No, that scriptures is for those NOT covered! Those not covered are then judged as "murderers". And the criteria for the covering is not asking for forgiveness after every sin.

Notice by Judas' example that people can call themselves followers of Christ, Christians, or any other name to make themselves look good to man, but in murdering themselves they further prove that they were none of His? For no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

Their final action on this earth was to place their faith in something that could not save them.

While it is true that a person can fake following Christ, that still does not give you licence to set up your own criteria as to determine who that is.
That is a ridiculous twisting of Biblical principles. They were not "placing faith" in anything, biblically speaking. The only "faith" the Bible speaks is on Christ to save one from the penalty of their sin. All of this stuff about "faith that pain is God's best thing for you now, and you can be happy in it" is fabricated hogwash that sells Christian teaching books and whatnot, but goes way beyond what the scripture speaks about. If a person who has professed Christ kills himself, he was not using that to try to save himself from the penalty of sin. He was trying to escape temporal pain, though in a sinful, unapproved manner. So you can't apply that "faith in something to save them" concept, and then use that to judge them to Hell. The reason why I am so adamant in this point, is because this is often extended beyond just suicide to any Christian who is down and does not have a good enough attitude for us is so judged, (including xdisciple, at times), and this is wrong.

You still have not answered xdisciples question about those who jumped from the WTC. Were they too "trusting in" splatting onto the ground, to "save themselves" instead of "trusting in" God's "will" that they burn in the fire or have the building collapse on them?

You also still have not addressed what I just explained about the Biblical method of people's sin (including murder) not being counted against them.

 

[Shiloh]

All murderers means all, not some!by the "bird" According to you and some other confused people here Paul is in hell with David? The Bible says "All murderers, not just the ones that didn't repent"

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

2 Corinthians 11:14-15 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Even though those who make a profession of faith and appear righteous before man, their end shall be according to their works... Their evil will be revealed in the end.

Suicides were only appearing as ministers of righteousness.

The Bible agrees with that fully.

 

[rbell]

HBSMN, you still haven't answered my question:


So if you died today, and there was an unconfessed sin in your life, would you go to hell?

Furthermore, arguments you've made for killers (10 commandments, Revelations passage) also applies to liars.

Does that mean anyone who lies goes to hell?

 

[Claudia_T]

Eric,

Im not sure on this because I havent read every single post on these "suicide" threads, but I think my position on it is at least a little less to the extreme as are those who think everyone who commits suicide will "go to hell".

I think, as with everything, there has to be SOME cases where everything is not as it seems. I dont think we can really judge anyone ever...

Those are the two things where I kinda part company with that side of it.

But still I think that for the most part, you had better not get the idea that you can commit suicide and still go to heaven. I think PROBABLY that it is a symptom of a much bigger problem in the person's life, namely that they have no true deep faith in God...

...and I think that trials and tribulations bring that out in a person... what was there all along.

It has nothing whatsoever, at least for me, as to whether or not I can sympathize with someone who commits suicide, I certainly sympathize... there probably arent too many people who havent considered that at least momentarily...


Claudia

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

[IMO this denies the Word of God] The Bible says all liars, all abominable, all murderers, etc. will have their part in the lake of fire.

ad hominem deleted.

 

[Claudia_T]

HBSMN, you still haven't answered my question:


So if you died today, and there was an unconfessed sin in your life, would you go to hell?

Furthermore, arguments you've made for killers (10 commandments, Revelations passage) also applies to liars.

Does that mean anyone who lies goes to hell?

I know Im not the one who you asked this question of but my opinion is that we are to have a "conscience void of offense". We might not remember all our sins and we might die before having THE CHANCE to confess them... kinda like the theif on the cross where people say well he didnt do any good works and he went to heaven... well the thing is... HE COULDNT!

 

[rbell]

Do you deny the Word of God, rbell? The Bible says all liars, all abominable, all murderers, etc. will have their part in the lake of fire.

I have yet to see a thread where you don't accuse someone of "denying the word of God." I'm a Bible-believing child of God and that is offensive.

Those mentioned in Revelation are those who have engaged in those sins and never asked Christ to be their Lord. So does that mean if a Christian lies, etc., he is sinning? Of course. Is it an affront to God? Of course. Does one lie send a Christian to hell? Ridiculous.

Read the whole verse. If you apply it the way you see it, then if you ever lie or are fearful, you're going to hell. Of course that's not proper application.

Now quit saying I "deny the Word of God." It is possible to disagree without throwing out those kind of perjoratives. Well, at least, it's possible for me to. We'll see if you're able.

Now...answer my question, take three: If you died today, and there was an unconfessed sin in your life, would you go to hell?

 

[Claudia_T]

Do you deny the Word of God, rbell? The Bible says all liars, all abominable, all murderers, etc. will have their part in the lake of fire.

I agree with you for the most part, but I feel like I just want to bring something to your attention.

You know how the Bible says this:

1Jn:2:4: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

well see how it says those who dont keep the commandments are LIARS?

ok well by that definition, any of us who doesnt completely keep the law of God will be in Hell. Because after all, ALL LIARS will be in Hell, right?

But remember when Jesus and the disciples on Sabbath day were rubbing the grains together? and the Pharisees got onto them saying they were breaking the Sabbath? well technically they were but Jesus said, remember when David ate the shewbread in the temple? and it was considered UNLAWFUL for him to do that, right?

Yet if you read on about that story and also about Jesus healing the man with the withered hand but will see that Jesus said that what He and the disciples did was NOT unlawful.... because they were working for God on Sabbath and so it was ok for them to stop and do the grains to have something to eat.

So do you see how sometimes you cannot always go COMPLETELY black and white on these kinds of issues?

Claudia

 

[Claudia_T]

I personally believe that if those on the right side of this issue and those on the left side of this issue were to move just a little bit over towards the middle, we might all be just a little closer to the truth on this issue.

Claudia :wavey:

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Paul gave a listing of those sins which would keep a person from entering heaven. He went on to say, 'But such were some of you; but ye are washed...'

If a person knows what is sin and keeps on in that sin without repentance, God must be true to His Word. God must punish for sin.

But, if man confesses his sin, as the Bible teaches, and repents of that sin, turning away from it, they God will not charge that sin against the one repenting. That sin is cast into the sea never to be remembered against him again.

Suicide is not a sin one can repent of. This thread is about suicide, not about lying, rbell. If you want to start one on lying, go do that.

 

[Claudia_T]

His Blood Spoke My Name.


Let me tell you a story to try to illustrate what Im trying to say to you... I hope nobody will mind.

When I was alot younger and I didnt know anything about the Bible, I had to have birth control so I got an IUD. I ended up getting pregnant anyway. It made it to where I couldnt even hardly walk. I had to go to the hospital.

The doctor told me I needed to get the IUD removed soon as possible because if I didnt, I would probably die. He also told me that probably the baby would die if it were removed, a sort of "natural abortion".

I had two children at home already.

So my choice was based on the fact that PROBABLY if I didnt have it removed both I and the baby would die... my husband and my other two children would be without a wife and mother.

So I chose to have the IUD removed.

That way at least I myself would live and my husband and children would have a wife and mother.

When doctors do triage they make decisions like this every day.

And I think today, being now that I am a Christian, that I would make the same choice if I had to.

And so ALL murderers will burn in Hell? I dont know, you tell me?

why would I want to make the choice to murder both MYSELF and my baby?

This way I only killed one person...

see what Im saying?


Claudia