Westcott and Hort...

[Marcia]

So He in His humanity —Jesus—accomplished the true destiny of man,
and accomplished through suffering the destiny
of man fallen.
From
http://www.tegarttech.com/wh/books/historicfaith/chap5.html

The gnostics did not believe that Jesus had humanity; they denied that he came in the flesh, yet here Westcott is affirming that Jesus incarnated as man. This is a big gnostic no-no.

The 2nd link there has many statements about the humanity of Christ, in fact. Too many for me to quote.

And whatever people allege Westcott believed, these statements prove he was not gnostic. Not only that, there is nothing in the MV's that teach gnostic doctrine. In fact, here are some NIV quotes that refute gnosticism:

But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation- Col 1.22

For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodilyform . . .Col 2.9

[Bolding is mine]

No gnostic worth his salt would be willing to translate those words that way! Colossians was partly written to refute the gnostic heresy and these verses (in the NIV) show that.

 

[natters]

Great stuff, Marcia! Westcott and Hort affirmed Christ was both God and man, and was God in the flesh. The both affirmed Jesus is the Lord.

1 John 4:2 "Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:"

1 Cor 12:3b "and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."

 

[rsr]

This thread reminds me of the old practice of digging up the bodies of the dead and sticking their heads on poles for public vilification.

Has anyone checked Hort's and Wescott's graves to make sure they're still in place.

Just in case anyone is interested, James May has done exhaustive research on the calumnied claims against Westcott and Hort:

http://www.kjvonly.org/james/index_james.html

 

[DeclareHim]

Westcott and Hort were Anglicans the KJV 1611 translators were Anglican. Both held the same beliefs. The Anglican Church preaches salvation by works and infant baptism and consider more than the 66 book cannon so. If your going to get picky and say we should dump MV cause Westcott and Hort mss was used fine but I'm going to dump my KJV and my MV's based on W&H text. Ok decide.

1cross+3nails=4given

 

[Ransom]

marcia posted:

here Westcott is affirming that Jesus incarnated as man.

Allow me to save michelle the trouble of posting:

Is not!

We all know what she's going to say anyway. Only she'll probably take 1000 words to do it, so hopefully I've saved the BB some bandwidth costs.

 

[Ransom]

rsr said:

James May has done exhaustive research on the calumnied claims against Westcott and Hort

I'm skimming this page now. Man, May pulls no punches.

This author has compiled ten pages of quotations similar to those given above, all the while passing over many references as the project became more and more akin to proving that the sun radiates light. It may border on the absurd to seek to prove that which is obvious, yet there are those for whom obvious is not enough. It is so plain that Westcott believed in the deity of Christ that all who read Westcott's writings (or profess to read them) have no excuse for claiming otherwise. Unfortunately having no excuse does not stop the leaders of the King James Only movement from devoting themselves to this odd practice. David Sorenson provides an outrageous illustration as he claims that, "Though Westcott stops short of outright denial of the Deity of Christ, he certainly does not affirm it either." It cannot be stated too strongly that Sorenson does not know what he is talking about, and this in material that was the major project for his D.Min. degree at Pensacola Christian College Seminary. There is such an abundance of material in which Westcott most clearly affirms the deity of the Lord Jesus that such statements are utterly ridiculous. (emphasis added)

This excerpt pretty much sums up the agenda-driven character assassination against Westcott:

Men whom we suspect were formerly of sound judgment have fairly gone rabid in their attacks against the Bishop. Apparently anyone as successful as Westcott in removing the aura from the version which has practically become the object of idolatry must be ipso facto the most despicable of men and totally corrupt in every aspect of his theology and personal life, even if the facts state otherwise.

 

[natters]

Ransom said, quoting James May, "It is so plain that Westcott believed in the deity of Christ that all who read Westcott's writings (or profess to read them) have no excuse for claiming otherwise.....There is such an abundance of material in which Westcott most clearly affirms the deity of the Lord Jesus that such statements are utterly ridiculous."

This explains why michelle (being challenged to provide a single quote after she claimed that they deny the deity of Christ) is coming up completely empty.

 

[michelle]

Did anyone of you read, the entirety of the very first link I provided? If you did, then you would understand, along with other links I have provided, that the Anglican Chruch at the time of Westcott and Hort, ana the Cambridge University were infiltrated by the illuminati/freemasonry. [baseless attack snipped] They even hinted about it in one of their quotes. What are wolves in sheeps clothing, and how is it that one can tell? They were involved with other people who were occultist and involved in occult societies also, to which increased as time progressed into some very evil things.

Just because these men may have written down their belief in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, do not be deceived. Even the devils also do.

Matt.8

28. And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
29. And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

James 2

17. Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

2 Cor.11

10. As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia.
11. Wherefore? because I love you not? God knoweth.
12. But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
13. For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Matt. 24

24. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

[ August 21, 2004, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob ]

 

[rsr]

OK. Westcott and Hort made up orthodox quotes to cover their freemason/illumaniti/UFO/New Age beliefs.

The perfect conspiracy. The fact that there is no proof of the charges is proof that they are true.

If you understood, you would understand.

 

[natters]

Michelle said "Did anyone of you read, the entirety of the very first link I provided?"

I did not. When I did a word search for "Westcott" in it and came up empty, I realized that all I was looking at was a weak attempt at guilt by association. I do not have time for such vague, speculative connections. Provide proof.

Michelle said "Are you aware, that if W/H should have not covered their gnostic beliefs, they would have been rightly considered HERETICS?"

But you have not proven they had gnostic beliefs to cover in the first place.

Michelle said "They even hinted about it in one of their quotes."

No, you deliberately misinterpret the quote.

Michelle said "They were involved with other people who were occultist"

Policemen are often involved with rapists and murderers. Guilt by association?

Michelle said "and involved in occult societies also"

These "societies" were initially formed to investigate claims of paranormal activity, not to practice it. A policeman investigates crime, but does not commit crime by doing so.

Michelle said "to which increased as time progressed into some very evil things."

Yes, much later after Westcott and Hort had left such societies because of the direction they were going.

Did you know that the majority of these sorts of accusations originated with Riplinger's book "New Age Bible Versions", but even Riplinger herself admitted that she was speculating, basing her speculation on the (completely wrong) notion that theologian B.F. Westcott and occultist W.W. Westcott were the same person?. What a JOKE! What a shame. What an unbelievably deceptive and shoddy piece of slanderous 'dung' (to use a word from the KJV) she calls "research". Her false slime has grown into this huge KJV-only myth that is repeated so often without anyone really looking into it for themselves. And you have fallen for it hook, line and sinker.

Still waiting for those first-hand quotes where you claim they did not believe Jesus was God and where you claim they believe Jesus was only "enlightened with the Christ". Provide the first-hand quotes. If you cannot, you need to repent and retract your statements.

 

[natters]

rsr said "The perfect conspiracy. The fact that there is no proof of the charges is proof that they are true."

Very astute observation. What evidence can be provided when any and all evidence is automatically classified as "coverup"?

 

[rsr]

The Conspiracy Corollary: The fact that you do not recognize the conspiracy is proof that you are part of it.

 

[michelle]

--------------------------------------------------
I did not. When I did a word search for "Westcott" in it and came up empty, I realized that all I was looking at was a weak attempt at guilt by association. I do not have time for such vague, speculative connections. Provide proof.

--------------------------------------------------

Then you are the one guilty of approaching this issue with bias. Not me. I have looked at both sides of this issue. Westcott and Hort did not just have "associations" with these people, they were "involved" with these people. The Lord has commanded that we separate ourselves from error, and from those who are walking disorderly (2 Cor.6:14-18).

Webster's New World Dictionary

association: 1. an associating or being associated 2. fellowship; partnership 3. an organization, society, etc. 4. a mental connection between ideas, etc.

involve: 1. to make intricate or complicated 2. to entangle in difficulty, danger, etc; implicate
3. to affect or include /the riot involved thousands/ 4. to require /saving involves thrift/ 5. to make busy; occupy /involved the class in research/


According to the scriptures, we are not to be involved, nor associate with such things or people. It is futile to continue discussing this issue with you, as you have not yet fully equipped yourself with understanding this issue. Until you can honour my request, and read what I have provided in it's entirety, I will not further this conversation with you. I told you at the beginning, I only would only discuss this with you without the spirit of argument and bias. You are guilty of both these things. Until you can honour my request, I am done discussing this specific issue with you, as you are arguing with bias, and not all facts, nor in light of the truth in the scriptures concerning this.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[michelle]

[baseless attack snipped]

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

[ August 21, 2004, 08:44 PM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob ]

 

[natters]

Michelle said "Then you are the one guilty of approaching this issue with bias."

No, I am guilty of not wanting to cloud the issue with speculation and guilt by association. The Pharisees did the same thing as you are doing, condemning Christ because he associated with publicans and sinners.

Michelle said "It is futile to continue discussing this issue with you"

No it isn't. You just have to provide simple, clear, first-hand evidence.

Michelle said "Until you can honour my request, and read what I have provided in it's entirety, I will not further this conversation with you."

Promises, promises.

 

[Ransom]

michelle said:

OK. Westcott and Hort made up orthodox quotes to cover their freemason/illumaniti/UFO/New Age beliefs.

You got it. Yeah! You are finally catching on to the truth.

OK, whichever one of you is pretending to be a KJV-onlyist, the jig's up. You got a little too ambitious and went over the top.

 

[natters]

How do we know Michelle isn't making up orthodox quotes to cover her own freemason/illumaniti/UFO/New Age beliefs?

 

[michelle]

[baseless attack snipped]

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

[ August 21, 2004, 08:45 PM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob ]

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by natters:
How do we know Michelle isn't making up orthodox quotes to cover her own freemason/illumaniti/UFO/New Age beliefs?

Anybody can cover up their
freemason/illumaniti/UFO/New Age beliefs
AFTER they are defined. Hort & Westcott
covered up their freemason/illumaniti/UFO/New Age beliefs
before these beliefs were
made public. Now that takes a bonified
MIRACLE.

BTW, has anybody noticed that "Hort"
starts with "H" and has 4 letters --
just like "Hell"?
(I'm waiting for this one
to show up in Pastor Gail's
next book

:eek

)

 

[Ed Edwards]

Blessed are they who do their logic
in tight enough circles! They shall
be called "Wheels".

- Poppa Wheelie