Westminster Confession Of Faith And The Fall Of Man

[Calv1]

It has already been given. The word means "willing." He was willing to allow them to do as they wanted rather than what He wanted.

Now, let's move on. The WCF is meaningless to me. But you have certainly used it to avoid answering any of my questions. Here they are again. Don't hide behind a change of subject. Just answer the questions honestly.

1. So what part of man, body, soul, or spirit, do you think was not affected by the fall and is holy enough to approach God on its own merits?

2. What condition of perfect holiness did you meet that caused God to elect you to heaven that your neighbor, who is obviously inferior to you, does not meet?

3. If the atonement is applied to everybody without distinction then their sins are forgiven and they go to heaven. If not, how does a sinless person end up in hell?

4. If the Grace of God is powerless to achieve that which He intended it to achieve does that make God impotent? Unable to achieve His own goals?

Yeah that's one they can never jump over, they never answer it, they either act stupid like they don't understand it, or are. But yeah why is one man saved, yet his neighbor not? Is it because he's "Better", "Smarter", "Right place, right time"? Why is it that there are billions throughout the ages that never heard the gospel, does God not have the power to get the gospel to them? Of course He has it, He created everything, so by withholding the Gospel, it's the same as predesignating who is saved, only without purpose. First the bible SAYS everything that happens is predestined, that alone is enough. Then as you read scripture it's everywhere. If things happened without intervention, it's possible that Christ would not have been crucified, what if out of their free will they made Him King? Here's a better one, He's crucified, but out of mans free will NNE BELIEVES, Jesus prays for Peter, but Peters will is greater than God, so Satan does sift him like sand.

Look Arminianism is a form of Roman Catholicism, and is not biblical, it's heresy exactly as the Synod of Dort states, I have NO PRIDE, aside from God's grace I'd be wicked and ignorant, it's ONLY by God's grace that I am who I am, God took out my heart of stone, and put in a heart of flesh as promised, I DIDN'T DO IT, He did it, BEFORE I believed, I believed because He changed my heart, "I have drawn you with lovingkindess". I just don't debate anymore, it's like debating Atheists, you show them IE Hebrews 12, read the entire chapter where it teaches that God chastises everyone that He accepts as a son, I did that once in a Pentecostal Church, the leader said "My God is not like that", so I just walked out. I just wish they'd either STUDY AND LEARN THE TRUTH, or leave the Church, to me they are more dangerous than Atheists, for they give a form of Godliness without the truth, so they deceive many. My view had changed MUCH on Arminians, I am convinced many are truly saved, but they don't know the debate, those who learn it WILL believe it, the ones who don't were never saved, they were probably raised Christian, or think it's cool or something. God either grants grace and we do good, or withdraws what we do not deserve, and we sin, when we do good God gets the glory, not us, when we sin however we are responsible, for we are sinners, this is Christianity 101.

Arminians can NEVER pray for anyone, when they pray for say salvation of someone, number one they are asking God to violate mans will, second they saying God is trying, but too weak to save the person. Arminianism is so arrogant, that's what bothers me the most, it robs God of Glory. God's hand has been on me for two years and I saw it, now His face shines on me and I see it, I'm making great money, but that's because of God "Who creates the poor, who makes the rich, is it not I says the Lord", but they'll ignore that verse, just pathetic, sorry guys but I can't help, it's just so aggravating, just tell them to study, then come back so they don't embarrass themselves.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Van and Andy are eerily the same in their ignorance regarding the English language. Hmmm.....

I don't believe they're the same person, but both are just as biblically unsound as t'other.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes Y1, ordain does mean predestine. If it meant "permit" I have bridge to sell.

It also can and does me to permit!

 

[Yeshua1]

That ANY of us here are saved is due to the will and purposes of God period!

 

[Van]

It also can and does me to permit!

Do you have a link to a dictionary to support claim? Or did you just make it up?

ordain

Also found in: Thesaurus, Legal, Idioms, Encyclopedia.
or·dain
(ôr-dān′)
tr.v. or·dained, or·dain·ing, or·dains
1.
a. To invest with ministerial or priestly authority; confer holy orders on: ordain a priest.
b. To authorize as a rabbi.
2. To order or decree by virtue of superior authority: The management ordained that business attire should be worn in the office at all times.
3. To prearrange unalterably; predestine: events that were ordained by fate.

 

[Yeshua1]

Do you have a link to a dictionary to support claim? Or did you just make it up?

ordain

Also found in: Thesaurus, Legal, Idioms, Encyclopedia.
or·dain
(ôr-dān′)
tr.v. or·dained, or·dain·ing, or·dains
1.
a. To invest with ministerial or priestly authority; confer holy orders on: ordain a priest.
b. To authorize as a rabbi.
2. To order or decree by virtue of superior authority: The management ordained that business attire should be worn in the office at all times.
3. To prearrange unalterably; predestine: events that were ordained by fate.

At the time of the Westminster, it did mean both!

 

[Van]

Still no link. Based on usage in the Confession, it obviously meant predestine. There would have been no need for the follow-on thought (not the author of sin) if it meant permit.

 

[Van]

Here is a link to an honest, if flawed, Calvinist view on the topic. And yes, the author agrees with, drum roll, me!

Piper and Olson: Does God Ordain All Sinful Human Choices?

But I must point out that even this article contains flawed assertions, relying on a mistranslation of Revelation 13:8 and ignoring Revelation 17:8. See the NET footnote of Rev. 13:8 for an accurate translation basis.

 

[Van]

Just an aside, an oh by the way, concerning the assertion that somehow Ephesians 1:11 supports exhaustive determinism. The verse says God operates "all" according to the counsel of His will. But "all" does not mean "everything imaginable" just all of everything in view. All the marbles does not mean all the marbles on earth, just the ones inside the game's circle. Here the "all" is referring to God's redemption program, and God operates all of it sovereignly according to the counsel of His will. Absolutely no actual support is found in the verse for exhaustive determinism.

 

[Van]

Another BTW observation:

Lamentations 3 and Job 2 demonstrate that the destruction of Jerusalem and the suffering of Job were ordained by God, without this removing the moral accountability of the evil perpetrators: Babylon and Satan, respectively.

I always get a little suspicious when claimed support is not identified by citing a passage. I skimmed both chapters and nothing stood out to me indicating God holds morally accountable the individuals acting in accord with His predestined actions. Much more likely, all the individuals used to carry out God's wrath or evil yet redemptive actions, were also guilty of their own volitional sins, and thus would be held accountable for those independent actions. For example Satan fell of his own accord.

If anyone can specify exactly where this premise, God compels you to sin, then punishes you for that sin, is supported, I would appreciate the effort.

 

[Yeshua1]

Here is a link to an honest, if flawed, Calvinist view on the topic. And yes, the author agrees with, drum roll, me!

Piper and Olson: Does God Ordain All Sinful Human Choices?

But I must point out that even this article contains flawed assertions, relying on a mistranslation of Revelation 13:8 and ignoring Revelation 17:8. See the NET footnote of Rev. 13:8 for an accurate translation basis.

God ordains that the human beings will be able to do what they desire to do, as part of His plan and purposes, but in all decisions, the fault rests solely upon the sinner!

 

[Yeshua1]

Just an aside, an oh by the way, concerning the assertion that somehow Ephesians 1:11 supports exhaustive determinism. The verse says God operates "all" according to the counsel of His will. But "all" does not mean "everything imaginable" just all of everything in view. All the marbles does not mean all the marbles on earth, just the ones inside the game's circle. Here the "all" is referring to God's redemption program, and God operates all of it sovereignly according to the counsel of His will. Absolutely no actual support is found in the verse for exhaustive determinism.

The all would relate in a specific fashion to salvation, and how God operates TULIP....

 

[Yeshua1]

Another BTW observation:



I always get a little suspicious when claimed support is not identified by citing a passage. I skimmed both chapters and nothing stood out to me indicating God holds morally accountable the individuals acting in accord with His predestined actions. Much more likely, all the individuals used to carry out God's wrath or evil yet redemptive actions, were also guilty of their own volitional sins, and thus would be held accountable for those independent actions. For example Satan fell of his own accord.

If anyone can specify exactly where this premise, God compels you to sin, then punishes you for that sin, is supported, I would appreciate the effort.

Go ask Pharaoh!

 

[Van]

God ordains that the human beings will be able to do what they desire to do, as part of His plan and purposes, but in all decisions, the fault rests solely upon the sinner!

Yet another claim, but lacking support in scripture.

 

[Van]

The all would relate in a specific fashion to salvation, and how God operates TULIP....

The TULI are all false theology doctrines lacking any support in scripture. The "all" refers to God operating His plan of redemption according to the counsel of His will.

 

[Van]

Go ask Pharaoh!

Pharaoh sinned big league prior to God hardening his heart, and so any actions of Pharaoh that were predestined may not have added to his stockpile of wrath. Romans 2:5

 

[rsr]

Really? That's your scriptural support? Talk about false theology.

 

[Van]

Really? That's your scriptural support? Talk about false theology.

Yet another "taint so and you are rotten for saying so" post. Note the lack of any support for the idea that God compels folks to sin, and then punishes them for that sin.

OTOH, we know Pharaoh had hardened his heart and therefore practiced sin. And we know God punishes the lost for their sins. Case closed, and the actual false theology exposed!

 

[rsr]

Ah, cased closed indeed. Romans 2:5 has no relation to Pharaoh. Eisegesis on parade.

Yet Exodus directly says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart.

5: 21 The Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

7: 3 But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.

 

[Van]

Good grief, God punishes sinners for the sins they commit of their own volition. And you seem to deny, certainly intentionally overlook, that Pharaoh hardened his own heart. Cherry-picking scripture on display.

Lets cherry-pick those that support we harden our own hearts through the practice of sin - Exodus 8:15, Exodus 8:32, Exodus 9:34, and 1 Samuel 6:6. Yes, many verses also say God hardened Pharaoh's heart, but my point, exegesis on display, is Pharaoh deserved God's wrath, even if predestined sin is set aside.