What’s “Fundamental” to “Fundamentalism”?

[Dr. Bob]

Many of these groups have strict (or lax) concepts of separation and godly living. Again, that has NOTHING TO DO WITH FUNDAMENTALISM but simply the position of a particular group. You can be a fundamentalist and go to movies, you can be a fundamentalist and not go to movies, you can be a fundamentalist and not go to movies but watch those movies on TV, you can be a fundamentalist that doesn't own a TV, and you can be a fundamentalist and condemn anyone of the above views as "sin".

Don't get confused about issues of "practice/conduct/lifestyle" with the doctrinal truth. But it is hard NOT to lump this and that together - I know!!

 

[John of Japan]

Decades of work with young people.
Mentoring discipline and best practice is essential. Providing boundaries is essential. Telling people that drinking, dancing, smoking, gambling, playing card games is a sin...is not providing boundaries. It's taking social mores and turning them into legal reasons why God condemns you. It is Pharisaical.
With my own children, I mentored them with the reasons to be discreet and to discern how non-sinful activities can be used by Satan to create a vice. Therefore, guard your hearts. Since they were underage I said that any government restriction on alcohol or tobacco use is to be upheld since Romans 13 gives us our requirements. I then trusted them. It was really interesting to see them choose to act with discernment rather than me having to crack a whip. None of them ever wanted to go to a school dance (public school) as they found the dancing disgusting. It took me by pleasant surprise.
It is amazing how grace can be mentored and thus law becomes of little concern. As young men and women in college, they have a responsibility to grow into their own walk with God and older Christians can be their mentors.
What I have observed with fundamentalism is a control element that functions on fear rather than love. Young people in fundamentalist churches have been so controlled and not mentored that when they get free from the yoke, they swing to the other extremes. Having attended a fundamentalist Bible institute and then a public university, I found the Christians at the public university were more authentic, more driven to prayer and more aware of obedience to God than the kids in the fundamentalist school. In that school, most kids were busy trying to look good to the leadership while looking for every loophole they could find. My time at public university was much more Godward than at the fundamentalist school.

You are so judgmental about fundamentalists, I really don't care about the rest of what you say. Have a good day.

 

[AustinC]

There are THREE LEVELS of fundamentalism, and all three DIFFER yet retain the name "fundamentalism". That is the confusion.

MODIFIED FUNDAMENTALISM = believe most (not all) Biblical doctrine AND will actively cooperate with apostasy and compromise
Schools: Fuller Seminary, Gordon-Conwell, Trinity College and Seminary, Wheaton, LaTourneau, ORU, Western Conservative Baptist
Missions: Africa Inland Mission, Conservative Baptist Foreign Mission Soc., TEAM (The Evangelical Alliance Mission), Far Eastern Gospel Crusade, Greater Europe Mission, Sudan Interior Mission, World Vision, Wycliffe Translators

MODERATE FUNDAMENTALISM = expound all Biblical doctrine BUT will not expose error, and compromise with those who believe such
Schools: Biola, Cedarville, Dallas Seminary Grace Seminary, Cornerstone, Moody, Tennessee Temple, Westminster Seminary
Missions: American Board of Missions to the Jews, Central African Mission, Trans-World Radio, Word of Life Fellowship, Gospel Missionary Union, Back to the Bible

MILITANT FUNDAMENTALISM = expound all Biblical doctrine AND expose all error and compromise and those who believe such
Schools: Maranatha Baptist University, Bob Jones, Clearwater Christian, Faith BBC, BBC Springfield, BBC Clarks Summit, Central Seminary, Calvary Seminary, Detroit Seminary, Pillsbury BBC, Faith Seminary
Missions: Assoc of Baptists for World Evangelism, Baptist World Mission, Baptist International Mission Inc, Baptist Mid-Missions, Baptist Bible Fellowship, Maranatha Baptist Missions, Evangelical Baptist Missions

This is an interesting tier system you populated. I certainly lived in and experienced the militant fundamentalism in your tier system.

 

[John of Japan]

Around here a term used often is "performance-acceptance." We combat the idea of some fundamentalists that how you perform, what things you do, make you accepted before God. In reality, we must walk with Christ every day, and whether or not God loves us does not depend on what we do. He longs for us to walk with Him, and when we do, He then enables us and encourages us (remember the Holy Spirit is a Helper, one meaning of the Greek παρακλήτος, "Comforter") and motivates us to serve Him.

However, we also teach that judgmentalism is sin. Other colleges are never mentioned in chapel, and we have chapel speakers and other speakers from other fundamentalist groups, and very occasionally even from broader groups.

 

[AustinC]

Many of these groups have strict (or lax) concepts of separation and godly living. Again, that has NOTHING TO DO WITH FUNDAMENTALISM but simply the position of a particular group. You can be a fundamentalist and go to movies, you can be a fundamentalist and not go to movies, you can be a fundamentalist and not go to movies but watch those movies on TV, you can be a fundamentalist that doesn't own a TV, and you can be a fundamentalist and condemn anyone of the above views as "sin".

Don't get confused about issues of "practice/conduct/lifestyle" with the doctrinal truth. But it is hard NOT to lump this and that together - I know!!

Right
My point is that there are fundamental theogical truths which, ideally would be the fundamental community. But, as you show in the tier system, the group that has commandeered the name is militant and Pharisaical. Thus the other two tiers would be wise not to use the term since it has been so abused by militants. (I like your term, militant, as it does describe the nature of the group.)

 

[AustinC]

You are so judgmental about fundamentalists, I really don't care about the rest of what you say. Have a good day.

Thank you for the 3 tier system you are using. My experience has always been in the militant tier. I believe I am rightly calling out the Pharisaic nature of that tier. In fact, I wouldn't even put the other tiers into a fundamentalist camp.

 

[John of Japan]

Thank you for the 3 tier system you are using. My experience has always been in the militant tier. I believe I am rightly calling out the Pharisaic nature of that tier. In fact, I wouldn't even put the other tiers into a fundamentalist camp.

It's not my tier system. Dr. Bob is using it. He got it from church history scholar George W. Dollar's A History of Fundamentalism in America.

 

[John of Japan]

The three tier model of fundamentalism is actually out of date in some ways. When Dollar's book came out back in the '70's, there was a huge outcry from some institutions he tacked labels on, such as Tennessee Temple.

Nowadays, though the BBF was labeled by Dollar as militant, most of them have drifted leftward, and in the past decade or two there has actually been a split, with the more conservative types starting their own school and fellowship. The majority have gone toward CCM, non-Baptist speakers at the national mtg., modern Bible versions, etc.

 

[John of Japan]

Years ago here on the BB a former and now anti-fundamentalist asked me why I defend them. We were still missionaries to Japan at that time. Here is what I wrote:

“Why do I defend Fundamentalism? I was raised by my IFB parents (an IFB pastor and wife), won to Christ at age four by my IFB mother, baptized at age six by my IFB grandfather (an IFB evangelist/pastor), taught and shown how to live the Christian life with total dedication and be a witness for Christ by IFB parents and grandparents and five IFB preacher uncles, surrendered to the Lord's will under an IFB evangelist at age sixteen, called to preach under the same IFB evangelist two years later, received my undergraduate and grad degrees from IFB schools under many great IFB teachers, was called to be a missionary through an IFB missionary to Japan and had the call confirmed through another, was mentored by the leaders of my IFB mission board, married an absolutely wonderful IFB wife who grew up in an IFB church and graduated from an IFB college, have been supported both by prayer and finances by dozens (up to 50 at one time) of faithful IFB churches, had the privilege of starting two IFB churches in Japan and helping training many Japanese IFB pastors and Christian workers in the Lord's work, have had the great privilege of an incredible 34 year friendship with an IFB layman I've known since college. I could go on and on.

“I am the first to admit there are problems in the IFB movement. But I highly value loyalty to and honor to those who have blessed me.”

 

[John of Japan]

About 9 years ago, while still in Japan, I wrote this about my fundamentalist heritage in answer to another anti-fundamentalist here on the BB:

"My grandfather was a fundamentalist evangelist and saw 100,000 come to Christ. He taught me so much and meant so much to me. And Grandma lived the meaning of unconditional love. My father was a fundamentalist pastor and saw many come to Christ. I have his NT from when he pastored for 5 years in CO, with hash marks for 82 won to Christ. My fundamentalist mother won me to Christ. I thank God so much for my fundamentalist parents.

"I was educated in 3 fundamentalist colleges [and seminaries] by some wonderful, godly fundamentalist teachers, some of them still friends, including a nationally known Hebrew scholar. I married a wonderful fundamentalist girl, who was also educated in a fundamentalist college and is to this day my best friend. We had one child, a fundamentalist scholar who just finished his PhD dissertation on NT Greek linguistics. He loves God and serves God in his fundamentalist church.

"I became a missionary through a fundamentalist mission board, mentored by the evangelist director and his successor. I am supported by 48 fundamentalist churches, which quietly go their way trying to reach the world for Christ without making a media fuss. Many of the pastors are good friends. (There are over 4000 fundamentalist missionaries like me around the world, almost all of them striving to win souls and plant churches.) I often thank God for the privilege of serving Him as a missionary.

"There are 19 fundamentalist missionaries and Japanese pastors on our island, and twice a year we get together for some wonderful fundamentalist fellowship. They all are quietly seeking to win the island for Christ without making much of a fuss at it.

"Tomorrow I'll go to the church and prepare my sermon, then about five I'll visit a drug pusher (probably an addict too) who is interested in the Lord because his former yakuza (Japanese mafia) boss got saved through our ministry. I'll try to win him to Christ. Then on Sunday I'll preach in my tiny Japanese fundamentalist church, happy to be serving Christ.

"So, will I worry about those people in the website you linked to, who like to mock and make fun of fundamentalists. Naw. I'll just remember that Paul said: 'And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it: Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day" (1 Cor. 4:12-13). You can't serve God faithfully without being mocked and defamed [even by other Christians]. But God knows those who are His.'"

P. S. I edited in those statements in brackets for this post.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Thank you for the 3 tier system you are using. My experience has always been in the militant tier. I believe I am rightly calling out the Pharisaic nature of that tier. In fact, I wouldn't even put the other tiers into a fundamentalist camp.

As an extremely strong MILITANT Fundamentalist my whole life (since leaving Judaism) there are some that are Pharisaical in condemning "anyone not like me". But most happen to be "earnestly contending for the faith" as doctrinal soldiers faithful to the word, but NOT judging with anything other than biblical righteous judgment. Not Pharisaic in the least.

Part of "militant" contending for the faith is to point out error of the "modified" and "moderate". Sounds like exactly what you did saying "I wouldn't even put them into the fundamentalist camp". THAT is not being a Pharisee.

 

[Dr. Bob]

BTW, most of the non-militant groups would probably prefer to be called "evangelical" and not "fundamental". I talked with John Piper years ago in a conference about that trend . . . and that was the direction he was pushing. Also to play down the "Baptist" moniker.

 

[Dr. Bob]

It's not my tier system. Dr. Bob is using it. He got it from church history scholar George W. Dollar's A History of Fundamentalism in America.

Correct and it has been the "definition" (see sticky thread at the beginning of the Fundamental forum since the BB started. Thankfully Squire reposted it in that thread after one of the revisions of the BB in past 22 years. All credit to my late professor for the original tier system.

Today we could change it to
Evangelicals (many would NOT want modifier Baptist)
Evangelical Baptists (old moderate or modified)
Fundamental Baptists (militant Baptist earnestly contending for the faith)
and add a new category
XXXtreme or Pseudo-Fundamental Baptists (include KJVonly, man-made standeeerds by a managawd that would be very cult-like - using the word "cult" in proper definition of doctrinally and in practice schismatic - with a cult-like zeal/following making up their own definition of fundamental of the faith to include minutia and destruction of individual liberty)

 

[AustinC]

Correct and it has been the "definition" (see sticky thread at the beginning of the Fundamental forum since the BB started. Thankfully Squire reposted it in that thread after one of the revisions of the BB in past 22 years. All credit to my late professor for the original tier system.

Today we could change it to
Evangelicals (many would NOT want modifier Baptist)
Evangelical Baptists (old moderate or modified)
Fundamental Baptists (militant Baptist earnestly contending for the faith)
and add a new category
XXXtreme or Pseudo-Fundamental Baptists (include KJVonly, man-made standeeerds by a managawd that would be very cult-like - using the word "cult" in proper definition of doctrinally and in practice schismatic - with a cult-like zeal/following making up their own definition of fundamental of the faith to include minutia and destruction of individual liberty)

Militant Fundamentalist is Pharisaic Fundamentalist. It is similar to Paul as a Pharisee. Legalism is oozing from its pores. It has very little to do with contending for the fundamentals of the faith. It has much to do with contending for the social rules the group has added to the Bible.

 

[Bible Thumpin n Gun Totin]

I agree with the article entirely. Especially on the idea that Fundamentalism is about the structure, not about what is built around it.

I always say I don't care what kind of car, color of car, engine specs, etc folks are driving on God's Highway. I am concerned that they're going in the right direction!

A Fundamental Baptist will have more in common with a Fundamental Lutheran or Fundamental Presbyterian than with a wishy-washy Baptist. That is because the Holy Spirit will have confirmed the same undebatable Bible category of "clear truth" that the article speaks of.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Militant Fundamentalist is Pharisaic Fundamentalist. It is similar to Paul as a Pharisee. Legalism is oozing from its pores. It has very little to do with contending for the fundamentals of the faith.

Said the Pharisee, each word oozing with hate. Colors all you say that might be true.

 

[AustinC]

Said the Pharisee, each word oozing with hate. Colors all you say that might be true.

The Pharisee is in the militant fundamentalist movement.
The fundamentals of scripture are one thing.
The added laws of the fundamentalist movement are something else and they are perfectly paralleling the Pharisees of Jesus day.
This obviously bothers you. It bothered the Pharisees when Jesus revealed their legalism as well.

May God remind you of what is fundamental theology and then help remove the weight and sin that clings so closely in the fundamentalist movement. (Hebrews 12:1)

 

[Squire Robertsson]

A problem arises when otherwise good men confuse cultural fundamentalism with Biblical Fundamentalism.

 

[John of Japan]

Correct and it has been the "definition" (see sticky thread at the beginning of the Fundamental forum since the BB started. Thankfully Squire reposted it in that thread after one of the revisions of the BB in past 22 years. All credit to my late professor for the original tier system.

Today we could change it to
Evangelicals (many would NOT want modifier Baptist)
Evangelical Baptists (old moderate or modified)
Fundamental Baptists (militant Baptist earnestly contending for the faith)
and add a new category
XXXtreme or Pseudo-Fundamental Baptists (include KJVonly, man-made standeeerds by a managawd that would be very cult-like - using the word "cult" in proper definition of doctrinally and in practice schismatic - with a cult-like zeal/following making up their own definition of fundamental of the faith to include minutia and destruction of individual liberty)

Well said, Dr. Bob. I'm with you as to "militant." A true fundamentalist must stand for the faith. That is why most evangelicals do not want to be called fundamentalist; they don't believe in "contending for the faith." That was the disagreement that caused Billy Graham to break from my Granddad back in 1957 as you know. Billy didn't believe in calling the liberals out. In my new biography I tell the story of how John R. Rice turned around to the pastors on the platform in Miami, and said, "Some of you don't believe in the virgin birth. Shame on you!"

 

[John of Japan]

The Pharisee is in the militant fundamentalist movement.
The fundamentals of scripture are one thing.
The added laws of the fundamentalist movement are something else and they are perfectly paralleling the Pharisees of Jesus day.
This obviously bothers you. It bothered the Pharisees when Jesus revealed their legalism as well.

May God remind you of what is fundamental theology and then help remove the weight and sin that clings so closely in the fundamentalist movement. (Hebrews 12:1)

The Pharisees were lost. Are you calling us lost here?