What About The Sabbath?! Many Baptists Do not Keep the Sabbath ..Why???l

[Abiyah]

Thank you very much, Ben. I found an index which
lists the Seventh Day Baptists in the area, and
there is one a number of miles from me but in my
state.

No, one thing we are not is Pentecostal or
Charismatic. We have had occasional visitors
who thought we would be; most leave, but I know
of one who stayed and became a member,
choosing to fit in with us.

 

[Heavenly Thunderings]

Who can quote APOSTLE PAUL's teaching regarding EATING AND DRINKING and REGARDING A CERTAIN DAY FOR TO KEEP ? Who can make it clear?

Well, it might be significant.

 

[Abiyah]

Thunderings --

I am sure you think you are being helpful, but
believe me, we have looked at the Scriptures --
all of them -- at length, studying them from every
angle, in English as well as in both Greek and
Hebrew. So I will merely answer you with a verse
often tossed at me, although they use it out of
context and without understanding its meaning. I
will quote it, in KJV, in the same manner they use it
toward me. "One man esteemeth one day above
another; another esteemeth every day alike. Let
every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."

 

[Pastor Chet]

I here Romans 14:5 all the time. Here's a short version of what my answer is:
Neither Sabbath nor the first day of the week is mentioned in this passage. Since the verse is sandwiched between verses dealing with the issue of vegetarianism (v. 1-3 and v. 6), perhaps some believers were regarding certain days as special (v.6) in the sense of being dedicated to the eating of vegetables only (meat being considered by them, unclean, v. 14). Or this could be another reference to the Judaizing tendency to insist on the observance of Old Covenant feast days, with vegetarianism being combined with this practice (in the kind of syncretism that existed at Colosse). The overall principle is stated in Rom. 14:17, for the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but ceremonial practices of the Old Covenant were. It is they which are, again, being addressed.

Then again I'm always amazed at the disregard for God's Word among believers. It's doctrinally correct to say the Bible is our standard of authority, quite another to go to the utmost efforts to come up with reasons why we don't have to obey it.
Serving Christ in Freedom and enjoying the Sabbath blessing
chet

 

[HankD]

Then again I'm always amazed at the disregard for God's Word among believers. It's doctrinally correct to say the Bible is our standard of authority, quite another to go to the utmost efforts to come up with reasons why we don't have to obey it.

Genesis 17
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Dear Pastor Chet,

It is one thing for folks to keep the seventh day Sabbath and feel good about it.
It is another to accuse (howbeit obliquely) others of disregarding and/or disobedience to His Word.

Does the Seventh Day Baptist Church require all males to be circumcised?


HankD

[ March 20, 2003, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

[qwerty]

For those who support Christians keeping the Sabbath, does anyone who understands your side ever interface with these questions, and if so, are there answers?

Why are those who write after Pentecost silent on keeping the Sabbath (in the same way that the nation of Israel was supposed to keep it)?
Jesus could have supported the Sabbath position in Revelation chapters 2 and 3, but didn’t. Why not?
Why is there not one reference to Christians keeping the Sabbath in the writings after Pentecost?

 

[Abiyah]

I am sorry, but I have answered these questions,
and others, to the point of personal exhaution.
My friend Chet, and others, are obviously far more
patient than I. I no longer have the required
patience to converse on these matters with those
who will not hear. 8o)

 

[qwerty]

Can you point me to the threads where these questions have been answered?

 

[Jim1999]

The Sabbath to me is in the heart, and I observe this Sabbath each Sunday as I enter the sanctuary in my local church.

There will be time for the Sabbath rest in eternity. For now, I must be about my Father's business; preaching the gospel; teaching the word; helping the needy.

It doesn't matter to me whether one worships on Saturday, Sunday or Wednesday. Whatever day is convenient to the modern work week. Sunday has been declared the "Lord's Day" in many cultures, so that seems expedient to me.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Abiyah]

Originally posted by qwerty:
Can you point me to the threads where these questions have been answered?

No, Qwerty, I cannot, but you could do a search.
My computer access is very limited because I
receive my Internet service by cable TV, and there
are many things I cannot do as a result. 8o) I have
answered these questions, and many like them,
endlessly, more than I wished to here but mostly
on crosswalk.com.

The first thing I wish you and others to understand
is that I did not come to BB to argue, although I
have stepped into the fray on occasion. I came
here to enjoy fellowship with other believers.

The second is that I came here to sway no one. It
is not my job to convict; that is the job of the Holy
Spirit, who does it quite well without my
intervention. 8oD

The third thing is that I have an attitude: I believe
that as the Holy Spirit reveals these things to
people, they will either follow or they will reject
His leading; I cannot change someone's mind on
the Internet. I have written and spoken to people
on the subject, but on the basis that they are truly
interested, truly searching, and I continue to do so.

The fourth thing is that the information is here, and
it is in the Bible. There is nothing I can add to what
has already been said on the subject.

The fifth thing is that I do not wish to write on the
subject to those who will not even consider that
the traditions they have been taught are not
biblical. They are, indeed, merely traditions,
handed down from the RCatholic church, based
upon pagan practices, provable by even a shallow consideration of history.

[ March 22, 2003, 08:04 AM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]

 

[Ben W]

Qwerty,

Have a look at Acts 13:42-44.

Here you will find the church meeting on the Sabbath an Evangalising on the Sabbath, and also a reference that Paul would not give the asked for teaching on Sunday, but that they had to wait until the next Sabbath to recieve it.

 

[HankD]

Dear Ben,

They were Jews speaking to Jews under the Law as witnesses of the grace of God to to the Jew first and the Greek.

Acts 13
46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

The Book of Acts is a transitional Book.

Now both Jew and gentile come as one by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, led of the Spirit and made free from the curse of the Law.

Galatians 3
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Peace
HankD

 

[Pastor Chet]

You can try to come up with all kinds are reasoning and methods of interpretation to justify breaking the Seventh day Sabbath but there is a day coming when ALL FLESH will worship God on His Holy day. That time will be during the Millenial reign of Christ. So when Jesus returns ,the excuses will stop. When the Millenium starts you will worship on the Sabbath day. ISAIAH 66:22-23

 

[Jim H.]

Chet wrote...

I here Romans 14:5 all the time. Here's a short version of what my answer is:
Neither Sabbath nor the first day of the week is mentioned in this passage. Since the verse is sandwiched between verses dealing with the issue of vegetarianism (v. 1-3 and v. 6), perhaps some believers were regarding certain days as special (v.6) in the sense of being dedicated to the eating of vegetables only (meat being considered by them, unclean, v. 14). Or this could be another reference to the Judaizing tendency to insist on the observance of Old Covenant feast days, with vegetarianism being combined with this practice (in the kind of syncretism that existed at Colosse). The overall principle is stated in Rom. 14:17, for the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but ceremonial practices of the Old Covenant were. It is they which are, again, being addressed.

Bro. Chet, "perhaps" and "could be" don't cut it for me. You'll notice that I highlighted the part you wrote about it possibly pertaining to the Old Covenant feast days. I'm personally familiar with a group who uses the same arguements that Sabbath keepers use to say that the OT feast days have to be observed. They too observe the Sabbath. They interpret Rom. 14 as being about "man-made" laws, and not any "law of God" at all. So, how do we know? Do we just put the interpretation on the passage that we like the best and forget it?
Scripture is not,"this passage may mean this to you, but it means this to me". It means what it means.
So, what's the context of Romans 14? Back up a few verses and read. Chapter divisions are man-made.

Rom 13:8-14:6 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. (9) For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. (10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. (11) And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. (12) The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. (13) Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. (14) But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof. (14:1) Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. (2) For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. (3) Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. (4) Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. (5) One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. (6) He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Now, I ask you. Is Paul talking about "man-made rules", or "Old Covenant feast days"? Which laws did he list directly above this section?
That's what it means to interpret "in context".

Bro. Chet wrote in another post...

You can try to come up with all kinds are reasoning and methods of interpretation to justify breaking the Seventh day Sabbath but there is a day coming when ALL FLESH will worship God on His Holy day. That time will be during the Millenial reign of Christ. So when Jesus returns ,the excuses will stop. When the Millenium starts you will worship on the Sabbath day. ISAIAH 66:22-23

You're right, Bro. Chet. But read Ezekiel chapters 40-44. They discribe the millenial temple and animal sacrifices in the millenial temple in Jerusalem. So, does this mean that we should be offering animal sacrifices during the church age?

In Christ,
Jim.

 

[Pastor Chet]

The Sabbath has nothing to do with animal sacrifices that you mention in the millenial temple. you are confusing the issue. My advice is the same advice Paul gave Timothy. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not be ashamed , rightly dividing the Word of truth. And the passage in Romans has nothing to do with the Sabbath. So your answer , context or no context is not applicable.The issue is the perpetuity of the Decalogue of which the Sabbath happens to be a part,and rather the Sabbath therefore is to be kept as a Holy day. The seventh day Sabbath that is , not Sunday or a one day out of seven.

 

[Tim]

Quote, Pastor Chet" The issue is the perpetuity of the Decalogue of which the Sabbath happens to be a part"

This is precisely the issue, but it leads to certain complications:

1. If the decalogue is an ongoing obligation for Christians, then we must be legally bound by the same covenant as the nation of Israel was--for the ten commandments are referred to as THE covenant of the Old Testament.

2. If we are under the same O.T. covenant, then our obligation would not be limited to the ten commandments--but we would be obligated to keep the entire O.T. Law., including circumcision, dietary restrictions, sacrificial system etc.

3. If the above is true, then of what use is the New Covenant? If we say it only fulfilled the sacrificial aspect of the Old Covenant we are operating in the realm of speculative theology--the Law is always treated as a unit in the Scripture.

Something's got to go. Thank God it was the Old Covenant, 2 Cor 3:6-18, note verse 7, "if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious . . . which was to be done away . . . " Then of same subject, the Law written in stone, verse 13, "that which is abolished."

It's over, Jesus kept the Law for you--so we can all enter into His (sabbath)rest from the works of the law.

A believer in the better covenant,

Tim

 

[Pastor Chet]

you may want to study the law a little closer.there is the law written by God and put inside the ark of the covenant versus the law written by mose and placed on the side of the ark

 

[Ben W]

Hankd,

I can see why you feel that Acts is a "Transitional Book". Yet is that Scriptural? does it say specifically that the Sabbath is to pass away?

Jesus fufilled the law for sure. Yet the law and the Ten Commandments are not one and the same. You had to keep every single bit of ceremonial law for Salvation, yet now Salvation comes through the gift of Jesus Christ.

I have mentioned it many times before, but Revelation 14:12 "Here is the patience of the Saints, here are they that keep the Faith of Jesus and the Commandments of God.

Hence Faith of Jesus and Gods Commandments are linked.

It begs me to ask a question. When somebody accepts Jesus Christ, and comes into a wonderfull transforming Relationship with our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who would not want to keep the commandments. Why break even one? In a relationship with Jesus, born again, would you want to lie, Steal, commit Adultery etc? Of course not, so what is the deal about not wanting to keep the Sabbath? Who would not want to have a day devoted to God and resting in Him, putting aside work for monetry value in order to spend time with your Father. When somebody has had there life completley changed by Jesus Christ, who would want to go against even one of the Commandments? All have very valid reasons for being there.

 

[HankD]

When the Millenium starts you will worship on the Sabbath day. ISAIAH 66:22-23

Dear Pastor Chet.

I already worship God on the Sabbath (as well as every other day of the week).

HankD

 

[HankD]

I have mentioned it many times before, but Revelation 14:12 "Here is the patience of the Saints, here are they that keep the Faith of Jesus and the Commandments of God.

Hence Faith of Jesus and Gods Commandments are linked.

We have been here before Ben. What is meant by "the commandments" of God?
I brought up Acts 15 where the apostles sent out a letter saying that it seemed good to them and the Holy Ghost to convey the following message :

Acts 15
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

The Apostle John who was there with them and put put his stamp of approval upon this letter also wrote the Revelation through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

He also by inspiration said the following:

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Again...

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
John 15: 17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.

My view is that these are the "commandments of God" which John links to faith in Jesus Christ (as opposed to Moses).

It begs me to ask a question. When somebody accepts Jesus Christ, and comes into a wonderfull transforming Relationship with our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who would not want to keep the commandments. Why break even one? In a relationship with Jesus, born again, would you want to lie, Steal, commit Adultery etc? Of course not, so what is the deal about not wanting to keep the Sabbath? Who would not want to have a day devoted to God and resting in Him, putting aside work for monetry value in order to spend time with your Father. When somebody has had there life completley changed by Jesus Christ, who would want to go against even one of the Commandments? All have very valid reasons for being there.

Dear Ben,
you asked "what is the deal about not keeping the Sabbath?"
In most cases, nothing, I was baptised by immersion (although I had been "Christened" as a baby) as an act of volitional obedience on my part.
If you feel led of the Holy Spirit to "keep" the Sabbath, as an act of obedience by all means do so.
However, when I hear from others that it is related to my salvation or the salvation of others is called into question because they don't "keep" the Sabbath (or are not baptised in water) then in my estimation there is serious error.

Again, if you are clear on salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, then go ahead and "keep" the Sabbath.
For me however this would invoke this problem: that Sabbath keeping is detailed ONLY in the Law of Moses which requires that once a pro-active stance is taken by the keeping of any one of the details (don't work on the Sabbath) then one becomes a "debtor" to the whole Law.

...for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

I would hope that an observance of the Sabbath comes out of one's faith. After all, freedom from the Law is also freedom to "keep" BUT apart from attaching it to salvation or sanctification - and allow me the same.

Romans 14: 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

As to "keeping" the 10 commandments on my part...
if I keep His commandments to believe on Him and He who sent Him and love one another then I have kept the commandments of God. Not because of an external "letter" of the Law but because of the new birth, the nature of God (God is love) has been infused into my being.

As to the Sabbath rest : If we have entered into His rest, then we keep the Sabbath 24/7.

Above and beyond that Jesus gave us a parable which I believe is speaking of the "old" versus the "new" covenant.

Luke 5

36 And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.
37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

You asked

so what is the deal about not wanting to keep the Sabbath?

Matthew 12:
7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

HankD