What about the servant with the 1 talent? Did he go to hell?

[BobRyan]

I feel like no matter what I do it's wrong. Why is the bible so complicated? There are verses which say faith alone and there are verses which emphasize the importance of works. Why does the bible have to be this way?

#1. Salvatin is not a lottery ticket. "Get eternal life and streets of gold and live as you please".

It is a "new creation" - a "new birth" it is reconciliation with God. It is a transfer from rebellion against the Sovereign God of the Universe - to "No longer I who live but Christ that Lives IN ME" Gal 2:20.

"Your life is not your own for you have been bought with a price" --

Romans 6 - you are a slave of the one that you obey - by that which overcomes you - by that you are enslaved!

WE are freely accepted into salvation by faith - but that NEW BIRTH creation of God will predictably produce the good fruit of the good tree!

The secret is not in continually measuring your own fruit. The secret is in your connection to the Vine of Christ. If you come to him in prayer and daily submit before the throne of God - you will find acceptance with God each morning. Though you may fail at times during the day you will find the truth of 1John 1:9 through 1John 2:1.

1John 1
8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

1 John 2
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[mman]

Originally posted by xdisciplex:
I feel like no matter what I do it's wrong. Why is the bible so complicated? There are verses which say faith alone and there are verses which emphasize the importance of works. Why does the bible have to be this way? This is really driving me crazy. It's always the same. You read a few verses which say A and then you think: Now I get it!
But then you might find in another book verses which say B and then once again you realize that you haven't got it at all and you don't know how to combine the verses which say A with the verses which say B to get a result. This is really frustrating. Understanding the bible is so hard when I try to read books like Romans I get totally exhausted because I sit there and try to understand it and it's totally straining. I've really become scared of these books because I feel like they are too difficult to me.That's like biting on stone.

Think about this. God, in His infinite wisdom, gave you instructions that you can understand.

God would not have given us instructions we cannot understand.

Truth always lies in parallel with itself. Truth never contradicts itself.

To have the truth on any subject, we must have all that God has said on that subject. Until then, we do not have truth. As the Psalmist stated in Psalm 119:160, "The sum of your word is truth".

There are many false teachers, people who are deceived and being deceived. Nobody who is deceived, knows they are deceived, therefore they are sincere, wrong, but sincere.

Therefore, based on the above, here is what you can do, and I promise it works, because God said so.

Be diligent. Seek the truth and you will find it. The way that leads to life is narrow and only a few find it, the way that leads to destruction is broad and easy.

Forget everything you know about the bible. Remove all prior teaching and read the bible for what it says. Don't try to make it fit some doctrine or notion or preconceived idea, let the word speak for itself. It will not contradict itself.

Read the New Testament through. Get a notebook. When you read a verse on grace, add it to other verses on grace. When you read a verse on works, add it to other verses on works. You can have any number of groups of verses, such as verses on faith, repentance, grace, baptism, works, and so on.

I agree that it can be very confusing, because even Peter said that Paul wrote some things that were hard to understand and that some will "twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures." - II Pet 3:16.

When you rightly divide the word of truth (II Tim 2:15), there will be no contradictions, verses will mean what they say and do not have to be twisted or explained away, and there is a harmony beyond description.

You and I can understand God's word alike, speaking the same things, of one mind and one judgment, only when we are dilligently seeking God and rightly dividing His word of truth.

What verses do you find in conflict?

 

[rbell]

He didn't go to hell. He went to the dentist.

"A place where there was weeping and gnashing of teeth."

 

[mman]

duplicate post

 

[xdisciplex]

Now I'm scared again.
The problem is even if I read the bible and even if I come to a conclusion I can NEVER know that I'm right! Basically every christian thinks HE is right but not all can be right. What if I think I am right and the truth is I'm not and then I do the totally wrong things.

>In Romans 2 Paul says "NOT the hearers of the >Law but the DOERS will be justified"

And this is something which I once again do not understand at all. This sounds like a total contradiction to me. The bible also says if you try to fulfill the law you have to fulfill it all. And now Paul says you have to obey the law.
Somebody shall understand this....

 

[Hope of Glory]

Don't confuse justification with spiritual salvation. Justification is a process; you are justified by your works; you are justified by being obedient.

Spiritual salvation is an event. "What must I do to be saved?" The answer is simple:

"Believe [punctiliar action, not durative] on the Lord Jesus [plus nothing else] and you will [not may] be saved."

Although this is permanent and can never be taken from you, nore even forfeited, just like an earthly baby, birth is just the beginning. You must grow. That's where works come in.

 

[J. Jump]

I like some of what mman has said. If we want to know God's Truth then we must be willing to empty ourselves of all tradition and allow the Holy Spirit to teach us His Truth.

This is what I did roughly four years ago when God rattled my chain and got my attention in a big way.

It has been my prayer since that time that I would empty myself of previous teachings and allow the Spirit to teach me His Truth no matter how uncomfortable it might be and how bizarre it may seem, because I had never been taught that before. It was also my prayer that He would lead me and guide me to Bible teachers that know His Truth.

I think it is important to study the Bible for yourself, but I also believe God has given us teachers that are able to help us see some basics and foundations that will help us with further study on our own.

When you come across a teacher you just have to pray through his message and allow the Spirit to show you the Truth and show you what to spit out.

And you just have to continue to go through the process. It's really hard to explain, but for the most part you will just know that something is true and you will just know when you read/hear something that is not.

The biggest thing is walking by faith and trusting the God's promise holds true that He has given us His Spirit which is able to teach us and lead us into all truth.

Trust and obey for there's no other way!

Hey I think I've heard that before

 

[mman]

Originally posted by xdisciplex:
Now I'm scared again.
The problem is even if I read the bible and even if I come to a conclusion I can NEVER know that I'm right! Basically every christian thinks HE is right but not all can be right. What if I think I am right and the truth is I'm not and then I do the totally wrong things.

>In Romans 2 Paul says "NOT the hearers of the >Law but the DOERS will be justified"

And this is something which I once again do not understand at all. This sounds like a total contradiction to me. The bible also says if you try to fulfill the law you have to fulfill it all. And now Paul says you have to obey the law.
Somebody shall understand this....

You make some very true statements. Not everybody is right, since they believe and teach very different things. All sincere people think they are right.

Jn 4:24 says the worship must be in truth. God's word is truth (Jn 17:17). Jesus said we can know the truth (John 8:32). I Tim 2:3-4 says, "This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." The church is the pillar and ground of the truth (I Tim 3:15).

Since the church (singular) is the pillar and ground of the truth and God says we must worship Him in truth, not all the various denominations can be preaching the truth. Is the same God present and approving of the worship in denominations that teach opposite doctrines? Is He approving when one group says it's fine to have women teaching men or women deacons when other groups teach that is sinful. If "the church" was really made up of all the denominations, it would not be the pillar and ground of the truth, since they teach opposing doctrines and because they can't even agree amongst themselves, else they would be united and all teaching the same thing.

God wants you to know the truth. If you love the truth, you will find it. If you do not love the truth, it will lead to deception. II Thess 2:10-12, "and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

God's word is truth (Jn 17:17). God's word is the source of faith (Rom 10:17).

If you read and study, I think that you will find that faith is not just believing in God, it is doing what God said. According to James, the even the demons believe.

Heb 11:6 says, "But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him."

Heb 11 goes on to show what type of faith it takes to be pleasing to God. The chapter is filled with examples. Here is a question, were any works required in Heb 11 for the "faithful"?

Let's look at one example that the Hebrew writer uses, found in verse 30, "By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they were encircled for seven days."

This plainly states the walls fell by faith. Joshua 6:2 says "And the LORD said to Joshua, "See, I have given Jericho into your hand, with its king and mighty men of valor.

Jericho was a gift and the walls fell by faith. Action was required for the receiving of this gift. Their action was based on what God told them to do or they did it by faith. In no way did they earn this gift or obligate God. If that were the case, we could perform these same actions today and God would be obligated to make the walls fall down.

I think Gal 5:6 oftentimes is overlooked, which states, "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love."

These are the 3 legs that support christians. What happens to a 3 legged stool when you remove one of the legs?

Faith without works? Dead - James 2:14-26
Love without deeds? You don't have God's love - I John 3:17-18
Faith without love? Makes me a "nothing" - I Cor 13:2
Works without love? It profits me nothing - I Cor 13:3

Nothing man does earns him salvation, yet that does not release man from his obligation to obey?

Look as what is associated with being "in Christ":
redemption - Rom 3:24
alive to God - Rom 6:11
eternal life - Rom 6:23
no condemnation - Rom 8:1
one body - Rom 12:5
Sanctified - I Cor 1:2
God's grace - I Cor 1:4
a new creation - II Cor 5:17
sons of God - Gal 3:26
faith working through love - Gal 5:6
all spiritual blessing - Eph 1:3
immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us - Eph 2:7
brought near by the blood of Christ - Eph 2:13
forgiven - Eph 4:32
encouragement - Phil 2:1
promise of the life - II Tim 1:1
salvation - II Tim 2:10

Outside of Christ we cannot expect any of the things listed above.

Since being "In Christ" is so important, how do the scriptures tell us we get "into Christ"?

 

[mman]

Originally posted by Hope of Glory:
Don't confuse justification with spiritual salvation. Justification is a process; you are justified by your works; you are justified by being obedient.

Spiritual salvation is an event. "What must I do to be saved?" The answer is simple:

"Believe [punctiliar action, not durative] on the Lord Jesus [plus nothing else] and you will [not may] be saved."

Although this is permanent and can never be taken from you, nore even forfeited, just like an earthly baby, birth is just the beginning. You must grow. That's where works come in.

Rom 3:28, For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Rom 5:1, Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Gal 2:16, yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

and yet you have James that states,

You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. - James 2:24

James makes it clear that we are not justified by belief alone, else the demons would be justified, because they believe.

Hence, we are justified by faith, by doing what God said. Our actions do not earn us justification, but we are justified because God justifies us (Rom 3:26). It is God who justifies the faithful. Being faithful is not what justifies us, it is God.

What must I do to be saved?

Pentecost (Acts 2)
vs 37 - What must we do?
vs 38 - Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins

Saul
Acts 9:6 - So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?”
Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

What was the first thing Saul was told to do? Acts 22:16, "And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

The Jailer
Acts 16:30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Does the story end here? No, they haven't even spoken the word of the Lord to him. Let's keep reading.


32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized.

Oh, baptism followed the speaking the word of the Lord. The same is true in Acts 8:5,12 and 35-36.

34 Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household.

Notice, he rejoiced having believed. The rejoicing followed him hearing the word of the Lord and being baptized.

That is not unique to this incident. The eunuch rejoiced after his hearing the word of the Lord and his baptism (Acts 8:35-39).

Notice Acts 2:44, "Now all who believed were together...".

How does the Holy Spirit refer to this group of people who believed, repented, and were baptized? Simply as "all who believed".

The jailer could rejoice because like those in Acts 2, he had been baptized for the remission of his sins and he could be listed as one who believed.

 

[Eric B]

I'm sorry, xdisciple, that you ask these questions, and here come all the different groups with their conflicting, but authoritatively spoken interpretations, and you get even more confused.

But as for this issue, it is best to start from the original audience relvance (the people back then whom Christ spoke to, in their particular situation (the ending of the Old covenant, and the beginning of the new, and the persecution they suffered trying to bring the Gospel to Israel first). This sheds light on what these parables man, and then we can try to see if it or any principles from it may extend to us, and how. But many readers today just apply everything directly to us, and then when it ends up contradicting salvation by grace through faith, we must explain something away; usually redefining faith and grace (i.e. "grace is just instructions". But the OC showed man's inability to follow instructions to an extent satisfactory to God). Meanwhile, the unbelievers, rather than being won by our "talents", re ctually seeing more reason to dismiss the whole thing. One NY times editor pointed out Chris'ts teaching on salvation being dependant on giving to the poor. (Matt.25). We had better find out what this really means, or most of us must confess we are not "making it", and the unbelievers are right that we are phonies who are not really following Christ! (hint: an Israelite who accepts Christ's teaching would have welcomed His disciples into their house and feed them. That's what one did with missionaries back then, as we see Paul mention also. If they turn them away, it is because they reject Christ). So likewise, if a person today is damned for blowing opportunities to reach people, then who of us could be saved?

Basically, those people back then were still under the Law, and also, since Christ was visibly present before them, "to whom much is given, much is expected". That is why the penalties are so severe. Afterwards, we are in the age of grace. Notice, in Luke's version (c.19), the "people who would not have this man rule over them". It is obviously talking about Israel, and the disciples being sent to them.

 

[mman]

Originally posted by Eric B:
we must explain something away; usually redefining faith and grace (i.e. "grace is just instructions".

redefining???? Re-defining from what? Your understanding?

Let the scriptures define it and accept that definition!

I can use the scripture to show that God's grace provides instruction. Can you show me where God's grace did not provide instruction?

I can use the scripture to show that faith is different from belief alone, can you show even one example of where faith without action was acceptable, when God gave someone instructions and they ignored them or did what they wanted, and God was pleased with them? YOU CANNOT!

Challenge to Eric B - Use your definition of faith and explain how the wall of Jericho fell by faith (Heb 11:30).

Just because your definiton of faith does not match the biblical definition of faith, does not mean that I am re-defining faith, rather I am accepting God's definition of faith and not Webster's or yours.

 

[J. Jump]

The best definition of grace that I have ever heard came from a friend's dad, who is a pastor. He said grace is God doing for us what He requires of us and then giving us credit for it.

That can be seen so easily in salvation by grace through faith. God requires us to be perfect and holy, which is an impossibility for fallen man, so He Himself came down in the form of a man in His Son Jesus, lived the perfect and holy life and then died in our stead. When we accept this by faith then we are credited with His perfect and holy life.

Our works never enter the picture. Works can only enter the picture after one is "saved". And works are required to be found faithful, but not all will be found faithful, because not all Christians will allow the Spirit to continue to work in them.

They will do works, but it will be works of the flesh or wood, hay and stubble instead of gold, silver and precious stones. And it will burn at the bema seat.

Faith is merely believing what God has to say about the subject.

 

[mman]

Originally posted by J. Jump:
The best definition of grace that I have ever heard came from a friend's dad, who is a pastor. He said grace is God doing for us what He requires of us and then giving us credit for it.

That can be seen so easily in salvation by grace through faith. God requires us to be perfect and holy, which is an impossibility for fallen man, so He Himself came down in the form of a man in His Son Jesus, lived the perfect and holy life and then died in our stead. When we accept this by faith then we are credited with His perfect and holy life.

Our works never enter the picture. Works can only enter the picture after one is "saved". And works are required to be found faithful, but not all will be found faithful, because not all Christians will allow the Spirit to continue to work in them.

They will do works, but it will be works of the flesh or wood, hay and stubble instead of gold, silver and precious stones. And it will burn at the bema seat.

Faith is merely believing what God has to say about the subject.

Why not use God's definition of grace and faith?

I pose the same challenge to you that I did to Eric B.

Use your definition of faith and explain how the walls of Jericho fell by faith (Heb 11:30).

Here's a little test to see if your definition holds up. Let's substitute into the verse your definition and let's see if that matches God's definition.

By merely believing, the wall of Jericho fell.

If that were the case, wouldn't they fall when they first believed. Any action would be unnecessary and irrelavant. Now, do you really think if they believed God, yet refused to obey his instructions, the walls would have fallen just the same? You must believe this to be consistent.

Now, let's try another substitution.

By faithfully following God's instructions, the walls of Jericho fell.

While the sentence structure may be lacking, the conclusion is obvious, because the remainder of the verse states, "after they were encompassed for 7 days".

How did they know to encompass the walls for 7 days? God told them. Why did they not fall after the first day? Because God said to encompass them for 7 days.

When they did what God said, the Hebrew writer calls that faith. That is biblical faith that is pleasing to God. Whether under the old law or under the new law, we obey whether it makes any sense to us or not.

If that doesn't fit your definition of faith, who is right? You or God?

Also of note, Jericho had been given as a gift from God (Joshua 6:2, "See! I have given Jericho into your hand). Since God had already given them Jericho, why did they have to do anything to obtain it?

When God commands repentance, most people can understand that. We should change our lives, and live for God.

When God commands confession, most people can make sense of that. We should let others know that we believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

When God commands baptism, most people can't understand that. They can't make sense of it. They say it is unnecessary and irrelevant. It's a good thing those people weren't in the group that marched around Jericho.

No, baptism is the ultimate in faith, doing what God said, even when we don't understand. Baptism is not done as a sign because your sins have already been forgiven. Nowhere in scripture is that taught. It is no wonder that many think that all baptism does is "get you wet" because that is all that it did for them. Baptism is for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38), to wash our sins away (Acts 22:16), saves us (I Pet 3:21), and puts us into Christ (Rom 6:3-4 and Gal 3:26-27).

Baptism is the ultimate in faith. "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ." - Gal 3:26-27

 

[Eric B]

redefining???? Re-defining from what? Your understanding?

Let the scriptures define it and accept that definition!

I can use the scripture to show that God's grace provides instruction. Can you show me where God's grace did not provide instruction?

I can use the scripture to show that faith is different from belief alone, can you show even one example of where faith without action was acceptable, when God gave someone instructions and they ignored them or did what they wanted, and God was pleased with them? YOU CANNOT!

Challenge to Eric B - Use your definition of faith and explain how the wall of Jericho fell by faith (Heb 11:30).

Just because your definiton of faith does not match the biblical definition of faith, does not mean that I am re-defining faith, rather I am accepting God's definition of faith and not Webster's or yours.

I have answered all of this in past threads, and you would just reiterate your position and proof-texts (such as "the walls of Jericho fell by faith"), and never really answer what I said, and then the discussion would die down, and you seem to think all of that is forgotten.

You are focusing on specific examples of "faith in action", where God told someone to do something, and they believed Him and did it. For one thing, we are discussing salvation now. Those examples may prefigure this in principle to a certain extent, still, you cannot just take them and move them wholesale over to this age of the New Covenant. For one thing, the O.C. was "carnal, of the flesh", with physical shadows that correspond to spiritual realities today. Yes, in that case "God's grace provided instructions", but that was then, and spiritual salvation is a completely different issue with a different dynamic. Reiterating this over and over proves nothing. So those physical acts never were what saved spiritually, though the faith that led the people to do them is a good example for us that prefigures how we are saved. But overall, the entire OT showed that man never could do works and follow instruction in a consistent enough manner for him to be justified. Jericho was one instance, with a physical reward. Yes, me could get individual things right, but once again, never consistent enough to gain salvation. Remember, ONE SIN disqualifies you.

What J.Jump said about faith and works is right. No one is saying "faith without action was acceptable, God gave someone instructions and they ignored them or did what they wanted, and God was pleased with them?". That is your own twisted straw man. What you don't even get is that it is not about US making ourselves "acceptable" in the first place. We never could be on our own, so "grace" must be more than mere "instructions". You just don't recognize anything between faith without actions being "acceptable", and actions being "necessary for salvation". No matter what we do, our works would always end up unpleasing to God. It is so arrogant to think that you are doing so good, that God must be pleased with you.

So you ARE refefining faith, as well as grace. Grace and faith mean the instructions to do works, respectively, and then we please God and He therefore must save us. Romans, Galatians and others directly contradict this, and you will not deal with that. Remember: How do you get a wall to fall down? You get up and do something. [physical] How are you saved? receive Christ. [spiritual] If it is God who told you how to make the wall fall, it is by faith that you do it. But the mechanics of it is physical. And when He tells you how to be saved, it is by faith. But this time, it is spiritual. THAT is my answer to "How the walls fell by faith". Quit ignoring these points.

 

[J. Jump]

Sounds like you are trying to tie eternal savlation into the sanctification process. They are two totally separate entities. They must be kept separate.

My definition fits in exactly with the walls of Jericho, because God required of them to destroy Jericho, but they were unable to do so. God did it for them and gave them credit for doing it.

Do you really think it was the physical act of marching around the walls? No it was God that destroyed that city.

Now let me ask you a question. Are you saying that baptism is a requirement for eternal salvation?

 

[Eric B]

Oh, no! Don't get him started on that! That's all we argue about elsewhere, and most of this discussion with him stems from the arguments about baptismal regeneration (He is a Campbellist or Church of Christ member).
We should just resurrect one of those threads, if you want to go there with him, and then you can see how his arguments have been answered already.

 

[J. Jump]

Well I figured that to be the case, but just wanted to make sure I knew where he was coming from

 

[Dustin]

Martyrdom is the ultimate in faith...


Baptism in water DOES NOT save you. If it were so, then one could get baptised and then "live like the devil" just because they got baptised. It seems you people trust the water baptism more than you trust the Holy Spirit to get to heaven. What happens when you sin afterwards? Do you get baptised again to "wash them away?" The way you state it is that if you want to go to heaven, you "do all these things." That's like...semi-Pelagianism...

 

[Eric B]

You have to understand they don't believe in eternal security either, so Baptism is just the first work in a long list of continual works you must persevere in, not something that gets you in for good regardless of what you do afterwards.

 

[mman]

Originally posted by J. Jump:
Now let me ask you a question. Are you saying that baptism is a requirement for eternal salvation?

God said it first. I believe Him.

Now, was Jesus mistaken, misleading, wrong, lying, kidding or speaking the truth when he said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved."? - Mark 16:16

How could anyone misunderstand that? You would have to have help or another agenda to not understand this plain text.

Not only that, God said baptism washes away our sins, is for the forgiveness of sins, puts us into Christ, puts us into Christ's death, saves us, and is a working of God.

Are you saying a person without the forgiveness of sins, outside of Christ, outside the death of Christ, and unsaved is really saved?