I am pretty sure I'd be in major trouble if I showed up to preach in shoes and underwear no matter how clean the drawers or how shiny the shoes. :saint:
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What are churches for?
- Thread starter Gina B
- Start date
I am pretty sure I'd be in major trouble if I showed up to preach in shoes and underwear no matter how clean the drawers or how shiny the shoes. :saint:
Well you have been in the military so you know the importance of shiny shoes......& youd be ok if you wear a robe thru service. :thumbsup:
Gregory Perry Sr.
Active Member
Where in the Bible Do You Find.....
EW&F...where in the Word of God does it direct or require you to GET PERMISSION to "plant a church" from any group of men or denominational hierarchy? Do you feel led or called of God to do such a thing? If so, pray about it and ask the Lord to lead you and open the doors for such a thing. If it is His will, then He will make it possible and provide for it. God ordains the establishment of His true local assemblies by His own will....not by the will of some denominational HQ or hiearchy.(the will of man)....and remember.... Christ said..."where two or three are gathered together in my name,there am I in the midst of them."(Matt.18:20) Just my opinion...but you definitely ought to pray about it.
Bro.Greg
EW&F...where in the Word of God does it direct or require you to GET PERMISSION to "plant a church" from any group of men or denominational hierarchy? Do you feel led or called of God to do such a thing? If so, pray about it and ask the Lord to lead you and open the doors for such a thing. If it is His will, then He will make it possible and provide for it. God ordains the establishment of His true local assemblies by His own will....not by the will of some denominational HQ or hiearchy.(the will of man)....and remember.... Christ said..."where two or three are gathered together in my name,there am I in the midst of them."(Matt.18:20) Just my opinion...but you definitely ought to pray about it.
Bro.Greg
If I were to wear a robe I might as well wear a suit....IMHO.
And a Stetson....Light cream color....10 Gallon if you got the nerve.
As a suggestion....complete the look with a pair of Tony LAMAS (Be sure to take your spurs off when you go to service):laugh:
Greg....obviously you have not had dialog with the BIBLICIST or ICONOCLAST on this have you?
I don't have one. Mine was black, but it was snagged by one of my sons many years ago. I was trying to upload a pic with my current hat but the upload keeps failing. :BangHead:
What are churches for?
THe true churches are called out of the world to be ambassadors for the kingdom of heaven.
God did not call religious people to represent Him.
We are to speak for our Lord on this earth. Not our opinions, but only the official policies of the government (Kingdom) that appoints us!
The church- the called out ones are-are representing heaven's mind, will, purposes and intent to the earth. So His will be done on earth as it is in heaven. We are to quote the Bible because that is what our King's will is.
We are to study and understand our constitution of heaven (Bible) so that we will know what position our Father/King holds on all issues pertaining to life.
We as the called out ones are also to disciples others!
Churches today are so far away from the original calling! I believe God is calling us back to His truth and His way! But not all will hear His voice...
THe true churches are called out of the world to be ambassadors for the kingdom of heaven.
God did not call religious people to represent Him.
We are to speak for our Lord on this earth. Not our opinions, but only the official policies of the government (Kingdom) that appoints us!
The church- the called out ones are-are representing heaven's mind, will, purposes and intent to the earth. So His will be done on earth as it is in heaven. We are to quote the Bible because that is what our King's will is.
We are to study and understand our constitution of heaven (Bible) so that we will know what position our Father/King holds on all issues pertaining to life.
We as the called out ones are also to disciples others!
Churches today are so far away from the original calling! I believe God is calling us back to His truth and His way! But not all will hear His voice...
Gregory Perry Sr.
Active Member
Just an opinion...
EW&F...Not trying to start anything...but No...I've not discussed such things with either of them. Anybody that wants to is free to disagree with me but what I told you in the previous post is what I believe and I'll stand by it. Much of what I see postulated on this board is tied to so-called "reformed" theology. It has been my personal observation that those that embrace that kind of theology tend to take "contrary" positions on many other things as well. Just the WAY YOU MAKE YOUR STATEMENT ABOVE suggests to me that they (Biblicist and Iconoclast) would disagree with what I told you. I don't know about Bro.Biblicist...never had any conversations with him...but Bro.Iconoclast and I have gone a few rounds in other threads recently on issues related to Calvinism. I'm not a good enough debater to convince him to change his mind and he is not a good enough debater to change mine either. My position.....? just this...The Judgement Seat Of Christ will straighten us ALL out. In the meantime we must all be prayerful, humble (knowing the flesh we are made of) and submissive to God and His Word. Also, I hope you can either find a group of fellow believers that you can become a part of for fellowship and service to our Lord...OR....as God leads you...establish one if God so leads you...regardless of what the "religious" bodies around your area think of you. Also....If you are indeed a "Baptist", I hope you will be honest about that and not become a "stealth" Baptist by removing that title from the name of the church. We are to be wise about our dealings with lost folk, but these churches that remove the name Baptist so they can, in effect, sneak up on the RC (or any other) crowd are in a sense, being dishonest about who and what they are. I don't believe our Lord would approve of that. My observation has been that when the title "Baptist" is removed, usually so are any (or many) restraints about dress, behaviour, music, and other such aspects of the "old paths" which God has blessed over the years. Also...the culture of the world usually comes flooding in. You can't win the world by being like the world. That is a devilish philosophy. God Bless You Brother.
Bro.Greg:type:
EW&F...Not trying to start anything...but No...I've not discussed such things with either of them. Anybody that wants to is free to disagree with me but what I told you in the previous post is what I believe and I'll stand by it. Much of what I see postulated on this board is tied to so-called "reformed" theology. It has been my personal observation that those that embrace that kind of theology tend to take "contrary" positions on many other things as well. Just the WAY YOU MAKE YOUR STATEMENT ABOVE suggests to me that they (Biblicist and Iconoclast) would disagree with what I told you. I don't know about Bro.Biblicist...never had any conversations with him...but Bro.Iconoclast and I have gone a few rounds in other threads recently on issues related to Calvinism. I'm not a good enough debater to convince him to change his mind and he is not a good enough debater to change mine either. My position.....? just this...The Judgement Seat Of Christ will straighten us ALL out. In the meantime we must all be prayerful, humble (knowing the flesh we are made of) and submissive to God and His Word. Also, I hope you can either find a group of fellow believers that you can become a part of for fellowship and service to our Lord...OR....as God leads you...establish one if God so leads you...regardless of what the "religious" bodies around your area think of you. Also....If you are indeed a "Baptist", I hope you will be honest about that and not become a "stealth" Baptist by removing that title from the name of the church. We are to be wise about our dealings with lost folk, but these churches that remove the name Baptist so they can, in effect, sneak up on the RC (or any other) crowd are in a sense, being dishonest about who and what they are. I don't believe our Lord would approve of that. My observation has been that when the title "Baptist" is removed, usually so are any (or many) restraints about dress, behaviour, music, and other such aspects of the "old paths" which God has blessed over the years. Also...the culture of the world usually comes flooding in. You can't win the world by being like the world. That is a devilish philosophy. God Bless You Brother.
Bro.Greg:type:
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Gregory Perry Sr.
Active Member
Bravo!
Bro.Awaken...I believe that was very well said....not exhaustive....but well said. The Bible is the roadmap. I have a saying on a tapestry of an open Bible on my wall that says..."If all else fails, read the instructions" ! We will be judged by that same Word so we should seek to follow it as closely as possible in every way that it applies to us and our purpose here on earth.
We are the Church...and we make up the churches.
Bro.Greg:thumbsup:
Bro.Awaken...I believe that was very well said....not exhaustive....but well said. The Bible is the roadmap. I have a saying on a tapestry of an open Bible on my wall that says..."If all else fails, read the instructions" ! We will be judged by that same Word so we should seek to follow it as closely as possible in every way that it applies to us and our purpose here on earth.
We are the Church...and we make up the churches.
Bro.Greg:thumbsup:
Michael Wrenn
New Member
Well, that's pretty bleak. There are Baptist churches on every corner here, though none of the Reformed variety that I know of. But there are PBs scattered here and there.
I hope and pray you will be able to find fellowship. I can sympathize with that.
I don't mind sharing with you. It's now a part of my testimony.
I was saved as a teenager in a small country church in another demonination. A few years later, better half and I married. Different demonination and another small rural church. For a while we attended each others churches, but gradually drifted away.
In my case, I didn't have a strong desire to continue to attend my home church. Nor, to attend better half's either. While different demoninations, there was too much that was alike in each of them. I won't go into a lot of details other than to say, after all these years, I still vividly remember the fight over the carpet go down the center isle in my church. Voices lifted in anger, in God's house, between those who wanted RED carpet and those who didn't. Remember overhearing ladies talking behind their gloved hands about those who couldn't dress for success. A deacon candidate, nominated by someone who didn't know, humilated in front of the congregation, because he was divorced and remarried some 25 or 30 years earlier. There's more, but I've probably already said too much.
For a while, we tried some other churches, but didn't find a home. Looking back, I know now, part of it was because I wasn't seriously looking for one. After all those years of rising with the sun, on the farm, it sure felt good to sleep late on Sunday morning. Perhaps to watch the worship services on TV broadcast from a church too many miles away to travel. Perhaps, not.
Eventually, we stopped going to church all together. Periodically, I'd read the Bible. Sometimes I'd pray. Sometimes enjoyed listening to worship services on the radio. By then, I wouldn't watch "TV preachers", after seeing their impact on my mother's life.
This story is getting too long. To make it shorter, many years went by. God sent a messenger. A neighbor invited us to his church, a Baptist church. We didn't go. God sent His messenger again. This time, I listened. There was more to be heard than simply the words of my neighbor.
That was about 2 1/2 years ago. We joined the church after a few months and I was rebaptised, by imersion this time. Without a shadow of a doubt, I believe that God grew tired of waiting for us. We are now where He wants us to be today.
That was my point. I know of a pastor who has to make sure that everyone knows he's wearing a Rolex watch. Fortunately I don't go to his church.
Personally, I rather listen to a God-called preacher wearing clean and patched overhauls than some I've heard wearing those $1,000 each suits.
Maybe I'm just old fashioned. Maybe I'm too judgemental. I know I believe the scriptures. You'll know them by the fruit they bear. (Not by the "fine" threads they wear.)
AMEN and AMEN.
If God has called you start a church, don't let anyone or anything stand in your way. Put HIS will first, even if it means holding church services in your garage on Sunday morning. Yes, just my opinion, too. And ditto "but you definitely ought to pray about it."
& here is the other shoe dropping....it would be great to have the support of a mother ship that could stabilize (maybe even fund) some of your efforts. And because I'm very particular about the gospel doctrines being taught the right way, I would have a more difficult time of it. Ive seen churches (even with the mother ship) fail & so it would be nice for Salvation by Grace people to come with encouragement, money & rolling up their collective sleeves & pitchin in. Just saying!
saturneptune
New Member
That is a very moving testimony. Thanks for sharing. I do think there are instances that starting a church after prayer and direction from the Lord is the right thing to do without the blessings of a local church, especially if one does not belong to a church. In general though, if I am a member involved in their ministry, then I still think it Biblical to get guidance from that church authority.
As far as hierarchies go, since I am a strong advocate of the local church, then I cannot see much purpose in getting a go ahead from layers of man made organizations. Permission from a bishop, cardinal, presbyter, or other such office holder that is not part of a local church is meaningless.
Again, thanks for sharing.
SN...please define local. Do you mean one that is in your community? What if the closest Local Church isnt really local....they are 40 miles away, in 4 towns away....seriously, I dont consider them local....they have no stake in the community where I live.....not even in the same county.
If God has called you to built an earthly church upon His rock, look to Him for support. As mentioned earlier, where two or three are gathered in His name, He will be with them.
A church (assembly) isn't an x number of people. It's the group of people who gather together to worship Him. If you have no where else for services, you can meet outdoors. Many worship services were held around here under bush arbors because the members didn't have a physical building for assembly. A tarp thrown over a rope tied between two trees can provide shelter from the sun and rain.
At its most basic element the only thing needed are 2-3 God fearing people and a Bible to conduct a worship service. A Bible isn't needed (edit: must have) if scriptures have been memorized for a particular sermon.
When you become discouraged because of a lack of material/physical needs think about the hardships of those in 3rd world countries. And, especially of those who put their lives at risk simply by openly carrying a Bible.
Man puts restrictions on himself when he thinks he must have more than God's word to start a church. Ever think about the possibility that God is waiting for you to act on His call before providing more to help your effort?
If it's in God's plan for you to start a church, all you need is one other person to actually begin one. Combine your prayers with his to seek a third. And so on. Pray about it. Listen to Him with all your being. If the Holy Spirit has convicted you, then take the first step. If it is His will for you to build a church, He will help you take the next step.
Is He waiting for you? Only you can answer that question within your heart.
Oldtimer, thanks for your post. I waited to respond to this thread and wasn't sure why until I read that you came to Christ in a church service.
ABC, I like how you worded that! It's easy to remember and makes sense. :flower:
I am curious about everyone's take on what the church itself (why we meet, what all is included in the purpose, etc..)
One of the main things I wanted to see in this thread? How many would say evangelism. That is something that, in the past, I thought wasn't quite right...that evangelism is our job 24/7 and meeting with our congregation/church is our day of rest from that...to get refreshed, learn, fellowship, etc..
However, I do see people coming to the church who are not believers, then they leave as believers. That is a beautiful thing.
I see my failure and the failure of many others to evangelize outside of the church and that is a problem.
This question may now be settled in my own mind. PART of meeting together should include the gospel message and it is not wrong to present it and it is not right to try to keep the meetings for believers. I was wrong about that for years.
That belief started in my own mind after spending quite some time in a church where that was about zip growth on my part because every Sunday morning was the salvation message. "Preaching to the choir." It bothered me, but I prayed and decided that I must be wrong...and found myself searching for something, anything to fill that need to dig deeper, figuring that there would always be something preached to learn from and take home...and I'd grab onto and idea and go home and study it on my own. That is about the time I joined this board (new believer when I joined) and found the conversations pretty stimulating. It was helping me get what I wasn't getting with other believers, but in no way should it have been like that.
It gave me a prejudicial attitude towards church at that time. Why go and hear the same thing every week? It was a duty, not a joy. I stopped going and figured I could benefit more at home, but was shocked to realize one day how far downhill I'd slipped without at least having church and being around other believers in the back of my mind. (at the time, husband had ended up leaving and I was in low-income housing, surrounded by unbelievers and a lot of junk.) I quit being known as that person who always preached to everyone and started acting more like the unsaved.
Then things changed, but I found myself deeply questioning if any church really was for believers and feeling negatively towards the majority of them.
I did end up finding a place that helped me grow out of the "me" phase, that made me strong enough to stop feeling such a strong need to be constantly fed (desperately needed at first as I came out of the LDS church and needed to LEARN!) and start feeling confident in being a better witness to everyone rather than just those that didn't know much about the Word.
Still, I've held onto a lot of prejudice against churches that put a strong focus on evangelism during services, but why should I? Where I attend now mixes it into the message. We still learn things. ALL benefit, from unbelievers to new believers to long time believers, and isn't that what the Gospel is for? ALL? Who we are to be there for? ALL? Yep. I do believe that now. I still believe that initial place wasn't correct in using the service fully for evangelism and the pastor made the mistake of thinking he was a pastor instead of an evangelist...even commenting that his least favorite thing to do was go talk to believers that had stopped coming to church...he'd rather go to unbelievers. He was an evangelist at heart, not a church pastor.
That doesn't mean evangelism cannot be combined in services.
Now I get it.
Thanks you. :thumbs:
ABC, I like how you worded that! It's easy to remember and makes sense. :flower:
I am curious about everyone's take on what the church itself (why we meet, what all is included in the purpose, etc..)
One of the main things I wanted to see in this thread? How many would say evangelism. That is something that, in the past, I thought wasn't quite right...that evangelism is our job 24/7 and meeting with our congregation/church is our day of rest from that...to get refreshed, learn, fellowship, etc..
However, I do see people coming to the church who are not believers, then they leave as believers. That is a beautiful thing.
I see my failure and the failure of many others to evangelize outside of the church and that is a problem.
This question may now be settled in my own mind. PART of meeting together should include the gospel message and it is not wrong to present it and it is not right to try to keep the meetings for believers. I was wrong about that for years.
That belief started in my own mind after spending quite some time in a church where that was about zip growth on my part because every Sunday morning was the salvation message. "Preaching to the choir." It bothered me, but I prayed and decided that I must be wrong...and found myself searching for something, anything to fill that need to dig deeper, figuring that there would always be something preached to learn from and take home...and I'd grab onto and idea and go home and study it on my own. That is about the time I joined this board (new believer when I joined) and found the conversations pretty stimulating. It was helping me get what I wasn't getting with other believers, but in no way should it have been like that.
It gave me a prejudicial attitude towards church at that time. Why go and hear the same thing every week? It was a duty, not a joy. I stopped going and figured I could benefit more at home, but was shocked to realize one day how far downhill I'd slipped without at least having church and being around other believers in the back of my mind. (at the time, husband had ended up leaving and I was in low-income housing, surrounded by unbelievers and a lot of junk.) I quit being known as that person who always preached to everyone and started acting more like the unsaved.
Then things changed, but I found myself deeply questioning if any church really was for believers and feeling negatively towards the majority of them.
I did end up finding a place that helped me grow out of the "me" phase, that made me strong enough to stop feeling such a strong need to be constantly fed (desperately needed at first as I came out of the LDS church and needed to LEARN!) and start feeling confident in being a better witness to everyone rather than just those that didn't know much about the Word.
Still, I've held onto a lot of prejudice against churches that put a strong focus on evangelism during services, but why should I? Where I attend now mixes it into the message. We still learn things. ALL benefit, from unbelievers to new believers to long time believers, and isn't that what the Gospel is for? ALL? Who we are to be there for? ALL? Yep. I do believe that now. I still believe that initial place wasn't correct in using the service fully for evangelism and the pastor made the mistake of thinking he was a pastor instead of an evangelist...even commenting that his least favorite thing to do was go talk to believers that had stopped coming to church...he'd rather go to unbelievers. He was an evangelist at heart, not a church pastor.
That doesn't mean evangelism cannot be combined in services.
Now I get it.
Thanks you. :thumbs: