WHAT ARE THE BASIC PROBLEMS IN LORDSHIP SALVATION?

[Steven_15]

Also states to make to work out your salvation, to make sure of your election, and to grow into the image of Christ!

Disciples have to fo

John MacArthur has been confronted several times about his teachings on "Lordship Salvation", and it seems he does not wish to retract any of it.

While I understand that what he sees in Scripture is the necessity, at some point, of a believer being conformed into the image of Christ ( Romans 8:29 ), he appears to skip right from the new birth to full maturity without taking into account that believers take time to grow in the faith...
And that they often stumble into sin and the Lord patiently chastises and causes them to see their errors, and to resolve to walk worthy of their calling and election.

This is where I have a distinct disagreement with him, if I'm understanding him correctly.

There's a reason for him not to retract on his heresy:

The heresy of lordship salvation theory was & is used to appeal to & enslave gullible christians saved in large numbers in the Billy Graham crusades in order to promote their own bellies and those of their cronies!

Money is involved...

 

[HankD]

What is it to be born again? Can you explain to me the nature and signs of the new birth in a sinner?

no but it doesn't matter God and I know.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

 

[Reynolds]

Read Mathew 5:48 to know about what God demands for salvation. Ate you pretending you can fulfill the moral law?

I have read it. Post the entire moral law and I will give you an answer.

 

[canadyjd]

The purpose of a thread is to gain answers to a particular question and to let in those try to disrupt it.

MacArthur states:

"Submission to the will of God, to Christ’s lordship, and to the guiding of the Spirit is an essential, not an optional, part of saving faith" (EPHESIANS, p. 249).

"Salvation isn't the result of an intellectual exercise. It comes from a life lived in obedience and service to Christ as revealed in the Scripture; it's the fruit of actions, not intentions. There's no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile...The life we live, not the words we speak, determines our eternal destiny" (Hard to Believe, p. 93).

The Word of God calls the above a lie in Romans 4:5... "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

MacArthur has based his beliefs of LS on volumes of scripture which, according to him, support his beliefs.

If any wish to discredit his views then first you must be able to accurately state what he believes, then show how the scripture he used to support those beliefs has been misinterpreted (please be ready for a deep dive into biblical Greek), and then give your own supporting scripture for your views.

Just saying, “that’s a lie” and then calling people names, slandering their motives, and questioning their salvation is a poor debate strategy and doesn’t support your position.

peace to you

 

[Yeshua1]

Agreed in the bolded.
But here is where I see it "going south"...

There is no such thing as a "faith that saves".
"Saving faith", if meant that one can have a faith that does the saving, is a misnomer.

Faith that accompanies God's work of salvation and gift of eternal life, is what I clearly see the Scriptures teaching.
Believers are not saved by faith.
You will not find that phrase anywhere in the Bible.
They are saved through it ( Ephesians 2:8, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 ).

It may seem like a small point, but it makes all the difference between teaching that man's efforts play a deciding part in God saving someone, and man's efforts being bypassed by a God that does according to His own will and purposes.

God's work in a person is evidenced ( Hebrews 11:1 ) by their faith, it is not determined by their faith.

To me, this is where the whole thing falls apart:

Do you see where the cart is being put in front of the horse?
It says that God's GIFT ( Romans 6:23 ) of eternal life comes FROM a life lived in obedience and service to Christ.
That salvation is the fruit of actions, not intentions.

It says that the life we live determines our destiny...
Instead of it being a reflection or evidence of our destiny as believers.

That is exactly what the Roman Catholic Church and many other entities teach and preach today.
"Lordship Salvation" teaches that men determine their destiny through their actions, not God's actions irrespective of man's.

This teaching of "sovereign grace" offends quite a few people, Steven.
Especially those who are trying their level best to work their way to Heaven.
It is to these the Lord will say:

" I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." ( Matthew 7:21-23 ).

They think that their efforts are what secure the favor and grace of God.

Faith never has saved any lost sinner, as its the object of that faith who saves!

 

[Yeshua1]

Non germane post, no one said God did not save the lost sinner.

God saves the lost sinner apart from anything that they do!

 

[Yeshua1]

You did, Van, when you stated that God credits a person's faith as righteousness, but then places that person in the body of Christ because of it.

Am I wrong?

How can God credit their faith when its His gift to them, and He is the one who elected them?

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, and I did not say"because of "it"." To what does your invented strawman refer? To our faith? God does not place anyone into Christ spiritually because of their efforts. It does not depend on the man that wills or works. Stop misrepresenting my view.
Our faith, if and only if, credited by God as righteousness, is the basis of God placing a person into Christ.

OTOH, you seem to deny God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth. 2 Thess. 2:13 You seem to deny God credits our faith as righteousness. Romans 4:4-5, Romans 4:23-24. You seem to deny that putting our faith in Christ is not works.

God did not select us to get saved due to us having faith, bit we have that faith due to His election!

 

[Yeshua1]

You didn't have to, Van.
You stated it here:

And here:




Again, am I wrong?
Then show me how you are not stating that faith is what places us into the body of Christ...
Instead of God doing that and faith being an indicator, not the determiner.

Please clarify it instead of telling me that I'm "obfuscating" it, Van.

I do deny that God chooses them because of their faith.

He chooses them for salvation through faith...
That faith is involved, but it does not determine our destiny.

Read post # 109.

Van is consistent at least, as his view would be Arminian in nature....

 

[Yeshua1]

I have always believed the “Lordship Salvation” theology was a method of self-examination not judging others.

The giving of indwelling Holy Spirit is the proof of salvation/right relationship with God for all believers. I don’t believe anyone can look at another person and declare that person saved or unsaved. We cannot see indwelling Holy Spirit.

Perhaps the best we can do is look at our own lives and examine whether we are living a transformed life that appears to be the biblical pattern of those who possess indwelling Holy Spirit.

I don’t know what all who believe LS have written on the subject, but from what I’ve read, it appears to rely on God’s grace for salvation through faith in Jesus Christ as the means of appropriating that salvation and indwelling Holy Spirit as enabling grace for living a transformed life that accompanies salvation.

If there are those who use LS to judge others, then I believe they are wrong to judge. If there are those who use LS to encourage believers to examine their own lives in Christ, then they are standing on firm biblical ground, imho.

And please, Steven_15, quit demanding people to stop posting on the thread.

I’m not an expert on the posting rules of the BB, but I suspect just because you start the OP, doesn’t give you authority to limit who can post on it.

peace to you

The inherit problem with LS taking too far would be trying to impose a standard on just how much of Jesus lordship required to really ever be saved!

 

[Yeshua1]

OK if one does not have to be sinless or does not have to become sinless to be saved how much sin is them allowable for one to be saved or to remain saved in a LS venue?

That is the question that LS has hard time answering!

 

[Yeshua1]

Lordship Salvation is a misnomer.

From my perspective, MacArthur and crew were really just attempting to figure out who is genuinely saved and who is falsely claiming to be saved. The question is: If a person does not live their life with the very real understanding that Jesus is the Sovereign King over all creation and that Jesus is the Head over the church, can that person genuinely be saved?

It is a massive twist of concept to teach that one must choose to make Jesus Lord. That idea is purely a free-will idea that falls in the same camp as those who teach that anyone who says the Sinners Prayer is therefore saved. These ideas are born from a synergist mindset that humans must cooperate in assistance with God in order to be saved. Reading MacArthur's recent books, it seems that he is a monergist, which eliminates the idea that a human plays any part in his/her salvation.

Is the proclaimed Christian walking in step with the Holy Spirit so that it is evident to all that Jesus is Lord of their life? If so, then there is every indication that this person is saved.

That's it. Jesus is Lord.

People who have a problem with this are most likely to be synergists who are wrestling with the degree to which they are in cooperation with God for their own salvation. Every synergist has a different concept as to where they lie on that spectrum. A monergist won't see a problem, because God does all the work in saving them.

I am a calvinist, and agree with the gist of the LS side, but would also like to have those who are fellow Christians allow for different growth stages in others lives!

 

[Yeshua1]

you have missed the point. Salvation does not depend on whether or not i have made Christ the LORD of my life but rather if i have been born again.

When Jesus saves us, right then he became Lord over our lives....

 

[Yeshua1]

John MacArthur has been confronted several times about his teachings on "Lordship Salvation", and it seems he does not wish to retract any of it.

While I understand that what he sees in Scripture is the necessity, at some point, of a believer being conformed into the image of Christ ( Romans 8:29 ), he appears to skip right from the new birth to full maturity without taking into account that believers take time to grow in the faith...
And that they often stumble into sin and the Lord patiently chastises and causes them to see their errors, and to resolve to walk worthy of their calling and election.

This is where I have a distinct disagreement with him, if I'm understanding him correctly.

Its that ole "either Jesus is Lord over all, or else he is Lord over none"

 

[Yeshua1]

MacArthur states:

"Submission to the will of God, to Christ’s lordship, and to the guiding of the Spirit is an essential, not an optional, part of saving faith" (EPHESIANS, p. 249).

"Salvation isn't the result of an intellectual exercise. It comes from a life lived in obedience and service to Christ as revealed in the Scripture; it's the fruit of actions, not intentions. There's no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile...The life we live, not the words we speak, determines our eternal destiny" (Hard to Believe, p. 93).

The Word of God calls it a lie in Romans 4:5... "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

Dr Mac is just stating there that if we profess to be saved by jesus, then we shall live in convenience to His will and His word.... Not perfectly, but when we fail to do that, we need to confess that to God, hget cleansed, and keep moving on!

 

[Yeshua1]

Disciples have to fo


There's a reason for him not to retract on his heresy:

The heresy of lordship salvation theory was & is used to appeal to & enslave gullible christians saved in large numbers in the Billy Graham crusades in order to promote their own bellies and those of their cronies!

Money is involved...

His concern would be that many of those thinking that they were saved really were not!

 

[Van]

You didn't have to, Van.
You stated it here:

Read post # 109.

Yes you are wrong, you are making no effort to address the issue. Deflection on display.

 

[Van]

Van, your concept of faith is found in the figment of your imagination. We will not agree because I reject your biblically unsupported idea of faith.

Utter nonsense, yet another taint so post devoid of any support.

 

[Van]

We believe unto salvation and so are justified when God regenerates us by His Holy Spirit, giving us a new heart and a new spirit, and effectually drawing us to Jesus Christ, so that we are made willing to embrace and receive Christ by faith as our righteousness and the satisfaction for our sins. No one will believe who is not given a new heart and a new disposition to love God. Repentance and faith are inseparable graces, and are the gifts of God to His elect. God Himself by His Spirit produces repentance and faith in the work of regeneration. Regeneration is not a work of man. It is not something we do. Regeneration is the work of Almighty God by His Holy Spirit raising His elect from spiritual death to spiritual life, giving them a new heart and a new spirit, so that they will repent, believe, and trust in Christ, fleeing from the wrath of God through Him. Regeneration is not a human decision. God In regeneration works upon our wills and hearts. Regeneration is the act of God upon our wills, not our act of willing or making the decision for Christ.

There is no possibility of truly receiving Christ as Savior and substitute without repentance and turning from sin to God by Jesus Christ.

Regeneration occurs when God places a person into Christ were they are "born anew" as a new creature. God chooses individuals for salvation through or on the basis of faith, prior to placing them in Christ. Your view is unbiblical.

 

[Salty]

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