WHAT ARE THE BASIC PROBLEMS IN LORDSHIP SALVATION?

[Dave G]

We cannot see indwelling Holy Spirit.

Perhaps the best we can do is look at our own lives and examine whether we are living a transformed life that appears to be the biblical pattern of those who possess indwelling Holy Spirit.

I agree.
We cannot directly see the Holy Spirit.

But we can see the affects of someone having the Spirit in them:

" This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith." ( 2 Timothy 3:1-8 ).

We are to turn away from such as resist the truth, have a form of godliness but in their actions they deny His presence and power.
We not only have the privilege, but we are commanded to beware of false teachers:

" Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. " ( Matthew 7:15-16 ).

The fruits:

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another." ( Galatians 5:19-26 ).

Lastly, we as believers can know what false teachers look like, from God's perspective:

2 Peter 2.

They walk after the flesh and the lusts of it, are not afraid to speak badly of government officials, and despise government.
They are covetous, always asking for money, etc.
They propagate false doctrines and other things the Bible does not teach.

They sometimes even deny the Lord as being the Son of God in the flesh, deny other things like the Virgin birth, and at times live in direct disobedience to God and His commands.

I can turn on my television to a certain world-wide channel and see them at work every day.

 

[HankD]

It is less that one has to make it to a certain degree of perfection, more that one who truly believes with such a belief as is saving does not believe with a belief or persuasion that is devoid of repentance. Whatever faith a demon can have cannot be justifying faith.

you have missed the point. Salvation does not depend on whether or not i have made Christ the LORD of my life but rather if i have been born again.

 

[Steven_15]

I agree.
We cannot directly see the Holy Spirit.

But we can see the affects of someone having the Spirit in them:

" This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith." ( 2 Timothy 3:1-8 ).

We are to turn away from such as resist the truth, have a form of godliness but in their actions they deny His presence and power.
We not only have the privilege, but we are commanded to beware of false teachers:

" Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. " ( Matthew 7:15-16 ).

The fruits:

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another." ( Galatians 5:19-26 ).

Lastly, we as believers can know what false teachers look like, from God's perspective:

2 Peter 2.

They walk after the flesh and the lusts of it, are not afraid to speak badly of government officials, and despise government.
They are covetous, always asking for money, etc.
They propagate false doctrines and other things the Bible does not teach.

They sometimes even deny the Lord as being the Son of God in the flesh, deny other things like the Virgin birth, and at times live in direct disobedience to God and His commands.

I can turn on my television to a certain world-wide channel and see them at work every day.

Lordship Salvationists have none of the fruit you quoted. Theirs is a phoney transformation similar to non-christians who use the motivation of punishments and rewards in the moral law to reform themselves.

Non-christians have more of love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, meekness, temperance than the lordship Salvationists. What differentiates the non-christians from true christians is faith in Christ's atonement for both justification and sanctification.

 

[Steven_15]

It is less that one has to make it to a certain degree of perfection, more that one who truly believes with such a belief as is saving does not believe with a belief or persuasion that is devoid of repentance. Whatever faith a demon can have cannot be justifying faith.

Demons believe there is one God. Where does Bible say demons believe in Christ's atonement?

Don't talk rubbish and demean faith by your stupid ignorance.

 

[Steven_15]

It is less that one has to make it to a certain degree of perfection, more that one who truly believes with such a belief as is saving does not believe with a belief or persuasion that is devoid of repentance. Whatever faith a demon can have cannot be justifying faith.

You have repented by lowering the bar of God's command as stated in Mathew 5:48 to suit your sinfulness and then boast about it. That's a stupid repentance.

 

[Steven_15]

Lordship Salvation is a misnomer.

From my perspective, MacArthur and crew were really just attempting to figure out who is genuinely saved and who is falsely claiming to be saved. The question is: If a person does not live their life with the very real understanding that Jesus is the Sovereign King over all creation and that Jesus is the Head over the church, can that person genuinely be saved?

It is a massive twist of concept to teach that one must choose to make Jesus Lord. That idea is purely a free-will idea that falls in the same camp as those who teach that anyone who says the Sinners Prayer is therefore saved. These ideas are born from a synergist mindset that humans must cooperate in assistance with God in order to be saved. Reading MacArthur's recent books, it seems that he is a monergist, which eliminates the idea that a human plays any part in his/her salvation.

Is the proclaimed Christian walking in step with the Holy Spirit so that it is evident to all that Jesus is Lord of their life? If so, then there is every indication that this person is saved.

That's it. Jesus is Lord.

People who have a problem with this are most likely to be synergists who are wrestling with the degree to which they are in cooperation with God for their own salvation. Every synergist has a different concept as to where they lie on that spectrum. A monergist won't see a problem, because God does all the work in saving them.

Is believing in Christ's atonement the same as saying the sinner's prayer? Don't talk rubbish demeaning faith without which none could please God.

 

[Steven_15]

We believe unto salvation and so are justified when God regenerates us by His Holy Spirit, giving us a new heart and a new spirit, and effectually drawing us to Jesus Christ, so that we are made willing to embrace and receive Christ by faith as our righteousness and the satisfaction for our sins. No one will believe who is not given a new heart and a new disposition to love God. Repentance and faith are inseparable graces, and are the gifts of God to His elect. God Himself by His Spirit produces repentance and faith in the work of regeneration. Regeneration is not a work of man. It is not something we do. Regeneration is the work of Almighty God by His Holy Spirit raising His elect from spiritual death to spiritual life, giving them a new heart and a new spirit, so that they will repent, believe, and trust in Christ, fleeing from the wrath of God through Him. Regeneration is not a human decision. God In regeneration works upon our wills and hearts. Regeneration is the act of God upon our wills, not our act of willing or making the decision for Christ.

There is no possibility of truly receiving Christ as Savior and substitute without repentance and turning from sin to God by Jesus Christ.

So you are regenerated and therefore sinless?

 

[Steven_15]

You brought up the "moral law". How about you quote it for us.

Read Mathew 5:48 to know about what God demands for salvation. Ate you pretending you can fulfill the moral law?

 

[Steven_15]

The new birth.
See Acts of the Apostles 14:16, Ezekiel 11:19, Ezekiel 36:26.

The preached word.
See James 1:18, Romans 10:8-17.

So you have accepted Jesus's Lordship? Have you obeyed Him perfectly? Are you sinless ready to be saved?

Or you are a phoney christian lowering the standard of obedience to suit your sinfulness and pretend you are saved?

 

[Steven_15]

What does one mean by a full commitment to Christ?

So you have accepted Jesus's Lordship? Have you obeyed Him perfectly? Are you sinless ready to be saved?

Or you are a phoney christian lowering the standard of obedience to suit your sinfulness and pretend you are saved?

 

[Particular]

Is believing in Christ's atonement the same as saying the sinner's prayer? Don't talk rubbish demeaning faith without which none could please God.

Steve, it seems you worship the sacrifice and ignore the one who gave his life for those he would redeem.
The one who gave his life for those he chose to redeem also gave his redeemed the faith to believe.
You take this gift and attempt to wield it as an amulet that magically does whatever you command it to do. You treat the sacrificial payment of Christ in the same fashion, as though it were a magical talisman for you to wield and vanquish whomever or whatever you wish. Your immaturity in the faith is obvious to me and I suspect it is obvious to many others. While I doubt you will take this advice, I suggest you sit back and actually learn what God says about faith rather than continue to speak without understanding.

 

[Steven_15]

Again, you did not support your nonsensical view from scripture. OTOH, I supported the view that less than full commitment does not work from Matthew 13.

You are a lordship Salvationists. Before losing your respect get away from this thread.

 

[Steven_15]

Agreed in the bolded.
But here is where I see it "going south"...

There is no such thing as a "faith that saves".
"Saving faith", if meant that one can have a faith that does the saving, is a misnomer.

Faith that accompanies God's work of salvation and gift of eternal life, is what I clearly see the Scriptures teaching.
Believers are not saved by faith.
You will not find that phrase anywhere in the Bible.
They are saved through it ( Ephesians 2:8, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 ).

It may seem like a small point, but it makes all the difference between teaching that man's efforts play a deciding part in God saving someone, and man's efforts being bypassed by a God that does according to His own will and purposes.

God's work in a person is evidenced ( Hebrews 11:1 ) by their faith, it is not determined by their faith.

To me, this is where the whole thing falls apart:

Do you see where the cart is being put in front of the horse?
It says that God's GIFT ( Romans 6:23 ) of eternal life comes FROM a life lived in obedience and service to Christ.
That salvation is the fruit of actions, not intentions.

It says that the life we live determines our destiny...
Instead of it being a reflection or evidence of our destiny as believers.

That is exactly what the Roman Catholic Church and many other entities teach and preach today.
"Lordship Salvation" teaches that men determine their destiny through their actions, not God's actions irrespective of man's.

This teaching of "sovereign grace" offends quite a few people, Steven.
Especially those who are trying their level best to work their way to Heaven.
It is to these the Lord will say:

" I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." ( Matthew 7:21-23 ).

They think that their efforts are what secure the favor and grace of God.

Your contribution is good. Don't be offended please. The quotation is from John MacArthur's writings.

My earlier reply to you wasn't meant for you. Got mixed up. God bless you, Bro.

 

[Noah Hirsch]

you have missed the point. Salvation does not depend on whether or not i have made Christ the LORD of my life but rather if i have been born again.

What is it to be born again? Can you explain to me the nature and signs of the new birth in a sinner?

 

[Noah Hirsch]

Did

Demons believe there is one God. Where does Bible say demons believe in Christ's atonement?

Don't talk rubbish and demean faith by your stupid ignorance.

Did you listen to the message?

 

[Noah Hirsch]

So you are regenerated and therefore sinless?

I did not say anything about being sinless.

 

[Noah Hirsch]

So you have accepted Jesus's Lordship? Have you obeyed Him perfectly? Are you sinless ready to be saved?

Or you are a phoney christian lowering the standard of obedience to suit your sinfulness and pretend you are saved?

I can embrace Jesus’ Lordship, believe and trust in Him as my Prophet, Teacher, and King without becoming sinful or perfect. Perfectionism is heresy.

 

[Steven_15]

I have always believed the “Lordship Salvation” theology was a method of self-examination not judging others.

The giving of indwelling Holy Spirit is the proof of salvation/right relationship with God for all believers. I don’t believe anyone can look at another person and declare that person saved or unsaved. We cannot see indwelling Holy Spirit.

Perhaps the best we can do is look at our own lives and examine whether we are living a transformed life that appears to be the biblical pattern of those who possess indwelling Holy Spirit.

I don’t know what all who believe LS have written on the subject, but from what I’ve read, it appears to rely on God’s grace for salvation through faith in Jesus Christ as the means of appropriating that salvation and indwelling Holy Spirit as enabling grace for living a transformed life that accompanies salvation.

If there are those who use LS to judge others, then I believe they are wrong to judge. If there are those who use LS to encourage believers to examine their own lives in Christ, then they are standing on firm biblical ground, imho.

And please, Steven_15, quit demanding people to stop posting on the thread.

I’m not an expert on the posting rules of the BB, but I suspect just because you start the OP, doesn’t give you authority to limit who can post on it.

peace to you

The purpose of a thread is to gain answers to a particular question and to let in those try to disrupt it.

MacArthur states:

"Submission to the will of God, to Christ’s lordship, and to the guiding of the Spirit is an essential, not an optional, part of saving faith" (EPHESIANS, p. 249).

"Salvation isn't the result of an intellectual exercise. It comes from a life lived in obedience and service to Christ as revealed in the Scripture; it's the fruit of actions, not intentions. There's no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile...The life we live, not the words we speak, determines our eternal destiny" (Hard to Believe, p. 93).

The Word of God calls the above a lie in Romans 4:5... "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

 

[Steven_15]

I thin


I think we need to distinguish between different versions of Lordship salvation. I do not think everyone who would identity themselves as a Lordship salvationist would believe that one necessarily has to become sinless in order to receive Jesus as Lord. In fact I am unaware of any who would aware such an idea. I am not saying that there are not any who do so, but I do not know of any.

MacArthur states:

"Submission to the will of God, to Christ’s lordship, and to the guiding of the Spirit is an essential, not an optional, part of saving faith" (EPHESIANS, p. 249).

"Salvation isn't the result of an intellectual exercise. It comes from a life lived in obedience and service to Christ as revealed in the Scripture; it's the fruit of actions, not intentions. There's no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile...The life we live, not the words we speak, determines our eternal destiny" (Hard to Believe, p. 93).

The Word of God calls it a lie in Romans 4:5... "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

 

[Dave G]

MacArthur states:

John MacArthur has been confronted several times about his teachings on "Lordship Salvation", and it seems he does not wish to retract any of it.

While I understand that what he sees in Scripture is the necessity, at some point, of a believer being conformed into the image of Christ ( Romans 8:29 ), he appears to skip right from the new birth to full maturity without taking into account that believers take time to grow in the faith...
And that they often stumble into sin and the Lord patiently chastises and causes them to see their errors, and to resolve to walk worthy of their calling and election.

This is where I have a distinct disagreement with him, if I'm understanding him correctly.