What are the Benefits to a DMin Program?

[StefanM]

One way or another the church pays for the training; either directly (through a continuing education budget item) or through the pastor's salary. My point is that if the church wants a rigorously-trained clergy it needs to consider that that comes with a cost. A pastor buried in loans will need to pay those loans back.

The difference is that when a church pays the pastor's salary at the doctoral level, the church paying the salary is receiving the benefit of the ministry training.

When a church pays a minister's tuition, then the minister leaves, the next church reaps the benefits.

It's a horrible system, but whenever the doctorate is seen as a ticket to a bigger church, you aren't going to see smaller and mid-sized churches lining up to reimburse tuition expenses.

 

[Greektim]

Do those of you who have earned a DMin see tangible benefits from your program? In other words, was it worth it and in what ways?

Note: I am not looking to teach, and I know that it is not usually a teaching credential (just to get that out of the way).

Coming back to the OPer... Sib, do you have a specialization you wanted to get? For instance, SEBTS has some cool DMin classes and programs. The applied theology has many different concentrations like preaching and leadership. Did you want a specific focus or just a general ministerial degree?

 

[Siberian]

Coming back to the OPer... Sib, do you have a specialization you wanted to get? For instance, SEBTS has some cool DMin classes and programs. The applied theology has many different concentrations like preaching and leadership. Did you want a specific focus or just a general ministerial degree?

Well, something like the Applied Theology DMin at Southern seems like it would be very helpful.

 

[glfredrick]

A couple of thoughts after reading the responses from my former post...

First, a D.Min. degree ALWAYS ends up being what the student puts into it. The core requirements are the same for a cheesy degree as they are for a stout degree, and both can be had at the same institution, whether accredited or not. Do a smallish project on improving your preaching, with the minimum required resources, a bunch of Internet citations, and 3 good old boys as your peer-review committee and you end up no better than when you started, save for the alphabet behind your name. Do a project where you advance the cause of Sunday school in general for any or all who are interested in bolstering attendance, evangelistic efforts, and ultimate effectiveness of Sunday school in general, and you have written a D.Min. project that makes a difference!

Second, the institution DOES make a difference -- not just the granting institution, but the place where the undergrad and graduate work is done. The majority of D.Min. students that I see coming through SBTS come from other M.Div. programs around the country. Very few are former SBTS grads. The deficiencies I see in their work is astounding, from basic English grammar skills to lack of proficiency handling the Word, some of these men (who are at times "famous" pastors leading large churches) are simply not doctoral level scholars, but if one pays the money, passes the requirements, and gets into the program, somehow they press ahead and make the course. That is often where I come in -- they need someone who can turn their ramblings into a finished product worthy of doctoral-level approval. Someone above mentioned that his undergrad work was more rigorous than his later work. That is (or should be) typical. It is not that master's level work is more difficult -- it just swims deeper into more focused areas. But, that being said, it can be more difficult, if only for the pace required.

Third, on the issue of teaching with a D.Min., I'm not sure where one can do that, but I'm sure it is possible. At SBTS, no one with less than a D.Miss or Ed.D. (and of course Ph.D.) can be a prof, unless for specialized adjunct coursework that is typically extra-catalog stuff.

SACS, the accrediting board with which I am most familiar has these standards:

Undergrad:

At least 25 percent of the discipline course hours in each major at the baccalaureate level are taught by faculty members holding the terminal degree—usually the earned doctorate—in the discipline, or the equivalent of the terminal degree.

Grad:

The institution employs competent faculty members qualified to accomplish the mission and goals of the institution. When determining acceptable qualifications of its faculty, an institution gives primary consideration to the highest earned degree in the discipline. The institution also considers competence, effectiveness, and capacity, including, as appropriate, undergraduate and graduate degrees, related work experiences in the field, professional licensure and certifications, honors and awards, continuous documented excellence in teaching, or other demonstrated competencies and achievements that contribute to effective teaching and student learning outcomes. For all cases, the institution is responsible for justifying and documenting the qualifications of its faculty.

 

[Havensdad]

Third, on the issue of teaching with a D.Min., I'm not sure where one can do that, but I'm sure it is possible.

SACS, the accrediting board with which I am most familiar has these standards:

Undergrad:

Grad:

The problem with the SACS wording, is that the D.Min. may well qualify as the "highest" earned degree in terms of training pastors (M.Div.). It is at least a little subjective, since the Ph.D. is not considered "pastoral" but "academic."

 

[Siberian]

A couple of thoughts after reading the responses from my former post...

First, a D.Min. degree ALWAYS ends up being what the student puts into it. The core requirements are the same for a cheesy degree as they are for a stout degree, and both can be had at the same institution, whether accredited or not. Do a smallish project on improving your preaching, with the minimum required resources, a bunch of Internet citations, and 3 good old boys as your peer-review committee and you end up no better than when you started, save for the alphabet behind your name. Do a project where you advance the cause of Sunday school in general for any or all who are interested in bolstering attendance, evangelistic efforts, and ultimate effectiveness of Sunday school in general, and you have written a D.Min. project that makes a difference!

Second, the institution DOES make a difference -- not just the granting institution, but the place where the undergrad and graduate work is done. The majority of D.Min. students that I see coming through SBTS come from other M.Div. programs around the country. Very few are former SBTS grads. The deficiencies I see in their work is astounding, from basic English grammar skills to lack of proficiency handling the Word, some of these men (who are at times "famous" pastors leading large churches) are simply not doctoral level scholars, but if one pays the money, passes the requirements, and gets into the program, somehow they press ahead and make the course. That is often where I come in -- they need someone who can turn their ramblings into a finished product worthy of doctoral-level approval. Someone above mentioned that his undergrad work was more rigorous than his later work. That is (or should be) typical. It is not that master's level work is more difficult -- it just swims deeper into more focused areas. But, that being said, it can be more difficult, if only for the pace required.

Again, I appreciate your perspective, and I have heard these criticisms before. I was actually hoping for the perspective of some who have recently completed D.Min.'s.

It is probably important to keep perspective: the D.Min is not a PhD. They are different degrees with different purposes. That does not mean that the D.Min. is a joke, though. As a pastor, with no ambition towards the academy (or even an ambition towards a larger church - I am gainfully and happily employed), I think that a three-year cohort-style learning program will be, at the very least, helpful.

Third, on the issue of teaching with a D.Min., I'm not sure where one can do that, but I'm sure it is possible. At SBTS, no one with less than a D.Miss or Ed.D. (and of course Ph.D.) can be a prof, unless for specialized adjunct coursework that is typically extra-catalog stuff.

SACS, the accrediting board with which I am most familiar has these standards:

Undergrad:

Grad:

Of course, the D.Min is a terminal degree and qualifies for teaching positions with SACS at the graduate level. But no doubt, it would be a challenge to find a faculty seat with a D.Min. I tried to avoid that discussion from the start though, because in my read of the D.Min. discussions on this bb it always turns into a "You can't teach with a D.Min., etc., etc.". I was just looking for those with the degree to get some feedback on their experiences, especially as it relates to their ministries.

 

[Rhetorician]

Now hear this!! Now hear this!!!

This is a quote from a section above:


[/QUOTE] Of course, the D.Min is a terminal degree and qualifies for teaching positions with SACS at the graduate level. But no doubt, it would be a challenge to find a faculty seat with a D.Min. I tried to avoid that discussion from the start though, because in my read of the D.Min. discussions on this bb it always turns into a "You can't teach with a D.Min., etc., etc.". I was just looking for those with the degree to get some feedback on their experiences, especially as it relates to their ministries.[/QUOTE]

I have followed this thread and cannot stand it any longer, I must have and say my part. I agree with the above quoted material.

I have a DMin from The University of the South, Sewanee. One of the most liberal High Anglican/Episcopalian seminaries in the country. It was, in essence, 54 hours long. I wrote my dissertation (or project) in two areas: History of Christian Thought and Classical Rhetoric. The paper was approximately 170pp long. The title was something like: "A Rhetorical Taxonomy of the Jubilee 2000 Apology of John Paul II."

I have:

1. Been the classroom at a Baptist college this Spring finishes my 13th year. For the record this is an RA school.

2. I have taught in two disciplines all these years, Communication / Speech / Interpersonal Comm (Rhetoric) and Religion,

3. Written/edited three books, with the 4th due out sometime this year co-written with my pastor.

4. I have a guided Master's level thesis.

5. Taught at the Master's level at a major university; and you might be willing to know in the area of Christian Ethics.

6. Help start/found a Christian publishing company where I serve as Acquisitions Editor and General Editor.

Etc., et al, and on and on I could go.

I get just the least bit perturbed when I am told, or it is implied to me that the DMin is not a "terminal" degree or it is not an "academic" degree.

Just my thoughts.

"That is all!" :smilewinkgrin:

 

[preachinjesus]

I get just the least bit perturbed when I am told, or it is implied to me that the DMin is not a "terminal" degree or it is not an "academic" degree.

Notwithstanding your above credentials a DMin simply isn't a terminal academic degree.

While you, Rhet, stand above and beyond the vast majority of DMin grads I've encountered, the degree isn't accorded the same respect as other terminal academic degrees.

I'm not saying a guy with a DMin can't teach undergrad. I've never said that. In fact two of my best profs in undergrad had DMins and they taught some of the best, most practical courses. If I were leading a school and needed a couple of profs for pastoral ministry, preaching, missiology, church leadership, etc courses I'd definitely hire a DMin way before I hire a PhD to teach those courses.

When I was in seminary our faculty hired a new prof for a pastoral ministries area. He was great, but his final degree was a DMin. So they had him, as a condition of his employment, go to a local university and get a PhD to ensure he could teach a full load and the school be properly situated. This was a pretty big evangelical seminary too.

I like DMins and my friends who have them. The OP has expressly stated he doesn't desire to teach. Well I'm all for getting a DMin...so long as my questions, from above, are answered properly.

 

[Siberian]

Notwithstanding your above credentials a DMin simply isn't a terminal academic degree.

Maybe you can support this with some credible and relevant outside source?

 

[StefanM]

The U.S. Dept of Ed apparently lists the D.Min. as an intermediate graduate degree.

http://find.ed.gov/search?q=cache:v...t=default_frontend&ie=UTF-8&access=p&oe=UTF-8

 

[TomVols]

Well, something like the Applied Theology DMin at Southern seems like it would be very helpful.

I like that, too. This or the Expository Preaching DMin focus area may be the best they have. I'd love to read some of the projects once they are done. I still like the meatier D.Mins at Gordon-Conwell, Beeson, Reformed, etc., basically just due to the projects being more than just a tad fluffy than at the Big Six counterparts.

The hard part about this, and I say this as a minister with a PhD, most PhDs couldn't minister their way out of a bucket if push came to shove. I remember meeting a, rather well known, guy with a DPhil from Oxford who was working in an academic department who had a whole lot of opinions about church methods and polity. He would, every now and then, remind everyone around him that he had pastored several churches. Yet when I encountered some people who were members of those churches he pastored they had less than glowing things to say about him. There is, usually, a huge disconnect between academics and practioners.

This is unfortunately true. But I've seen some D.Mins who were...well...theological and ministerial lightweights, too. But it all depends on the person. For the most part, the quality of the minister is determined by the rigor and application of their Master's program (MA or M.Div). The doctorate builds on this.

I get just the least bit perturbed when I am told, or it is implied to me that the DMin is not a "terminal" degree or it is not an "academic" degree.

With every right. The D.Min is a terminal professional degree, simlilar to the DBA in business, the Ed.D in education, and the Psy.D. in psychology. The PhD is a terminal research degree. These are very real distinctions to be sure, but the D.Min is no less a doctorate than a PhD.

The U.S. Dept of Ed apparently lists the D.Min. as an intermediate graduate degree.

http://find.ed.gov/search?q=cache:vM...ess=p&oe=UTF-8

This is a listing of qualifications. I fail to see how this is so, especially of the Psy.D. To equate these to EdS and graduate certificates is a head-scratcher for me.

By the way, one thing I've pointed out before. A recent Baptist association I know just called a new DOM a while back. All applicants with a terminal research doctorate had their resumes tossed immediately. This was infuriating. People assume that I, holding a research doctorate, want to teach. This is equally as fallacious as assuming a D.Min couldn't be a professor.

 

[StefanM]

With every right. The D.Min is a terminal professional degree, simlilar to the DBA in business, the Ed.D in education, and the Psy.D. in psychology. The PhD is a terminal research degree. These are very real distinctions to be sure, but the D.Min is no less a doctorate than a PhD.

I would agree with the description as a terminal professional degree, but I would not equate it to the Ed.D or the DBA. Ed.D. and DBA candidates generally are required to complete a full dissertation, and the number of doctoral-level credits is usually around 60, compared to about 30 for the DMin. Granted, the DMin requires a three-year MDiv for admission, but these MDiv credits are not at the doctoral level.

 

[TomVols]

Most of the terminal professional "project" requirements I"m familiar with are similar to the D.Min. And most of the professional doctoral programs I know are 30-36 hours. (I have a friend who earned the MA and PhD) from the Univ of Louisville with 64 hours combined in both degrees, and her doctoral dissertation was less than 70 pages.

Even if the D.Min is less than a DBA/PsyD, the total number of hours is something worth noting. I still think it's pretty hefty that a seminarian will have 150-160 hours in the M.Div/PhD, and some will have close to 200 graduate hours if they do the ThM as well.

 

[Havensdad]

I would agree with the description as a terminal professional degree, but I would not equate it to the Ed.D or the DBA. Ed.D. and DBA candidates generally are required to complete a full dissertation, and the number of doctoral-level credits is usually around 60, compared to about 30 for the DMin. Granted, the DMin requires a three-year MDiv for admission, but these MDiv credits are not at the doctoral level.

Um, I have to disagree with this. Not only do you only have to have a 30 to 45 credit degree to enter a DBA program, as compared to 90 for a D.Min., most DBA programs are not 60 hours. They are only 60 hours if you do not have a MA in business. For instance, of the 60 hours required for one accredited DBA...

Twenty-four hours of business core course work to acquaint the student with the functional areas of business. These courses can be waived if the student has satisfactorily completed equivalent graduate level course work at an AACSB accredited school of business.

I also disagree with you statement concerning the level of courses. Many upper level M.Div. courses are indeed equivalent to doctoral courses...in fact, some schools allow you to take a number of post grad classes, to fill M.Div. requirements (particularly in advance track, and pre- Ph.D. M.Div.s), or even have cross-over.

 

[StefanM]

Um, I have to disagree with this. Not only do you only have to have a 30 to 45 credit degree to enter a DBA program, as compared to 90 for a D.Min., most DBA programs are not 60 hours. They are only 60 hours if you do not have a MA in business. For instance, of the 60 hours required for one accredited DBA...



I also disagree with you statement concerning the level of courses. Many upper level M.Div. courses are indeed equivalent to doctoral courses...in fact, some schools allow you to take a number of post grad classes, to fill M.Div. requirements (particularly in advance track, and pre- Ph.D. M.Div.s), or even have cross-over.

The DBA you listed was from Louisiana Tech....consider the whole entry...

Study Program
Incoming students work with the Associate Dean of Graduate Studies and their departmental doctoral faculty to develop an individualized formal plan of study. Each plan of study must include the following:

1. Twenty-four hours of business core course work to acquaint the student with the functional areas of business. These courses can be waived if the student has satisfactorily completed equivalent graduate level course work at an AACSB accredited school of business.
2. An in-depth major concentration (minimum of 18 hours) in Accounting, Computer Information Systems, Finance, Marketing, Management, or Quantitative Analysis.
3. Two minor areas of at least nine hours each, one of which must be Quantitative Analysis (statistics). These supporting areas offer the student considerable latitude in identifying a course of study that can be tailored to the individual's interests and goals. Minors are available in Accounting, Computer Information Systems, Economics, Finance, Marketing, Management and Quantitative Analysis.
4. Three hours of BUSN 610, which is taught only in the Fall quarter. This course offers students an orientation to doctoral studies. Each year section focuses on a separate topic: general orientation (first year), teaching (second year) and research & presentation skills (third year).
5. Dissertation (minimum 15 hours of BUSN 651).

Not counting the hours you are excluding, 18 hours for the major + 18 hours (9 hours each for two minors) + 3 hour orientation class + 15 hours dissertation. That's 54 credit hours. That's pretty close to sixty.


Furthermore, you are making an invalid comparison with upper-level MDiv courses. Even if a school allows an MDiv student the ability to take doctoral or ThM level classes to apply to the MDiv, that does not mean that the MDiv courses are equivalent to doctoral courses. A similar situation exists when undergraduates can take graduate-level courses in the senior year. You will see that seminaries don't take the approach of equivalence, either. It is very common that ThM students enrolling in upper-level MDiv courses must complete additional assignments in order to receive ThM level credit.

Another issue is in the required study of research methods. In an EdD or DBA program, usually at least 2 courses in research methods (quantitative and/or qualitative) are required and often more are required. In a PhD program in theology, usually two foreign languages are required other than Greek and Hebrew. In a DMin program, such requirements are relatively rare.

 

[Fletcher Law]

I was blessed by my work place to be sent to Beeson. Great small seminary, big time teachers, all classroom-no-online programor plans for one, 2 week seminars in January, 2 weeks in summer, 6 sessions and a project to be approved and published.

Dean Timothy George for Theology, Preaching Robert Smith, James Earl Jones and Calvin Miller, Frank Thielman, Kenneth Matthews for Bible and Theology. I feel like I am bragging just having known and had these great teachers.

I just got back from the 2011 Preaching conference in Spartanburg. I was thrilled to hear many great preachers who were Beeson alumni or teachers. I finished Beeson in 2008. As teachers I had men of great academic standing with a passionate faith. They sought interaction and mentoring.

I was blessed and grew in faith and knowledge. Yes it was worth it for me for growth.

 

[Havensdad]

The DBA you listed was from Louisiana Tech....consider the whole entry...Not counting the hours you are excluding, 18 hours for the major + 18 hours (9 hours each for two minors) + 3 hour orientation class + 15 hours dissertation. That's 54 credit hours. That's pretty close to sixty.

That is overlap. If you notice, brother, the total for class requirements, including the 24 hours, is only sixty. If one has an MBA, they are only required to take 36 hours...roughly the same as many D.Min. programs. So in total, about HALF the credits are required for the DBA.

Furthermore, you are making an invalid comparison with upper-level MDiv courses. Even if a school allows an MDiv student the ability to take doctoral or ThM level classes to apply to the MDiv, that does not mean that the MDiv courses are equivalent to doctoral courses. A similar situation exists when undergraduates can take graduate-level courses in the senior year. You will see that seminaries don't take the approach of equivalence, either. It is very common that ThM students enrolling in upper-level MDiv courses must complete additional assignments in order to receive ThM level credit.

The degree of rigor between Doctoral level Seminary classes, and M. Div. classes, is negligible. In fact, looking at some of them, the M.Div classes require MORE coursework, and certainly more work than some DBA classes!

Another issue is in the required study of research methods. In an EdD or DBA program, usually at least 2 courses in research methods (quantitative and/or qualitative) are required and often more are required. In a PhD program in theology, usually two foreign languages are required other than Greek and Hebrew. In a DMin program, such requirements are relatively rare.

And yet a D.Min. requires proficiency in two non-English languages (at least the decent ones) i.e. Greek and Hebrew, while several other professional docs (such as a DBA), do not. Yet one more "leveler."

 

[Havensdad]

BTW Bro, these are fellowship forums...we can't keep arguing here.

 

[StefanM]

BTW Bro, these are fellowship forums...we can't keep arguing here.

We aren't arguing. We are discussing.

 

[StefanM]

That is overlap. If you notice, brother, the total for class requirements, including the 24 hours, is only sixty. If one has an MBA, they are only required to take 36 hours...roughly the same as many D.Min. programs. So in total, about HALF the credits are required for the DBA.

I'm not sure where you are getting this information. Points 2-5 clearly add up to 54 hours. If you had the leveling courses, the total would be 78.

The degree of rigor between Doctoral level Seminary classes, and M. Div. classes, is negligible. In fact, looking at some of them, the M.Div classes require MORE coursework, and certainly more work than some DBA classes!

The amount of coursework isn't necessarily indicative of rigor, although it can be. Regardless, I'm not sure what on what basis you are making these assertions. It may be possible that DMin seminars are similar to MDiv courses, but I highly doubt that PhD seminars are similar. Often the very structure of the course is different (presenting research papers instead of lectures).

And yet a D.Min. requires proficiency in two non-English languages (at least the decent ones) i.e. Greek and Hebrew, while several other professional docs (such as a DBA), do not. Yet one more "leveler."

"At least the decent ones"...there is quite a mixed bag! It's quite common to be able to get into a DMin program without the languages. At Southern Seminary, for instance, only the Expository preaching track has this requirement. Southeastern doesn't require them. Southwestern does. New Orleans doesn't. Golden Gate doesn't. Gordon-Conwell doesn't require the languages. Dallas Seminary requires them both, which isn't a surprise given their preference for the ThM, language-intensive seminary model.

Foreign language study for social science and business majors isn't relevant, typically. That is why you have study of qualitative and quantitative (statistical) research methods.