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What Are the Interpretive Keys to Unlock the Apocalypse?
- Thread starter TCGreek
- Start date
TCGreek said:
Am doing a quick series through Rev right now, about seven months for all of it. Last time I preached through it took about 2 1/2 years.
MacArthur has read broadly and takes a decidedly premil stance on the book and the the end times. He cites some of the ones mentioned in earlier, but I do not recall that he cites Walvoord, understandable re the DTS position on the Lordship issue.
JM will always takes a contextual literal grammatical historical approach to the text. I have not read all of the two volumes, but a good bit from both. I have read Walvoord most heavily. John Phillips is good, I also recommend his Exploring the Future.
I assign a date of 90-95 AD for the writing of the Rev. Last time I went through it I spent a lot of time (60 hours or so just on this book) on "Before Jerusalem Fell" by Gentry. Checked into the Church Fathers, but cannot remember much of it now. Did not think Gentry made his case. Of course the a-mil, post-mil position is pretty much dependent on a date prior to AD 70. IF REV WAS WRITTEN IN AD 95, their whole house of cards falls.
Not much time this evening.
As far as other ones "not getting it", IMO, if they are not premil, they didn't get it. That is why I say start with Genesis 12,15, etc if you want to get Revelation right. If you fail to take those promises to Israel literally, you start with a bad foundation, IMO.
John Mac did a six part series in late spring on Israel and the future. A good read. PM me if you want a link or if you want me to forward my PDF files of the transcripts.
John Mac did a six part series in late spring on Israel and the future. A good read. PM me if you want a link or if you want me to forward my PDF files of the transcripts.
thomas15 said:
Things to Come is an excellent resource, he takes a Dispensational approach.
Re Matt 24, unless you keep Israel and the Church separate you will go astray here. IMO, just about everyone who goes astray in their eschatology fails to keep a clear distinction between Isreal and the church in the Olivet discourse. Remember, there was no church in Matt 24, IMO. Also, keep in mind that Matthew deals more with questions 2 and 3 while only Luke addresses the first question that intro'd the discourse, "When shall these things be, what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the age". Luke alone focuses on the destruction of Jerusalem and he also makes a clear distinction re the end of the "times of the Gentiles" and shifts the focus back to Israel.
Sorry for the scattergun style post, not much time this evening...
Bob Alkire
New Member
rjprince said:
I agree with you. I've enjoyed his work for years.
TCGreek said:
Sorry if I left out a few of the IMOs. Had about three or four in there somewhere, needed a few more I guess.
IMO, ONLY THE PRE-MIL POSITION GETS THE BIBLE RIGHT! Not that we don't agree on some other important things, but a position that denies a literal 1000 year MK does NOT get the Bible right IMO. Hence, start with Gen 12,15,17 et al. If you start with Daniel, without a belief that the Land is promised to ethnic Israel as an everlasting covenant, then you did not start your study of Bible prophecy with the correct foundation.
I would have to clasify myself as dispensational as opposed to everything else, but we know where that gets us when we classify ourselves as calvinists!?
The 1000 years follows the Great Tribulation and the Great White Throne follows the MK in close succession. Anything less is "allegorical interpretation" but by some other name. OK, sorry, I know that the preferred term is "spiritual". Take it literal if it can be taken literal. Determine whether it is literal or not on the basis of the context and other passages rather than to make it fit one's theological presuppositions...
The Apocalypse Code by Hank Hanegraaf. It's timely and long overdue. If I were to write a review of it, it would echo the sentiments of Lowell Roggow on Amazon.com
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0849901847/?tag=baptis04-20
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0849901847/?tag=baptis04-20
I didn't like Things to Come (Dwight Pentacost). I agree it's a very good resource because it contains so much information. Good think you don't buy it by the pound. But he's clearly dispensational and pre-trib, and I found a lot of holes in the reasoning he uses to prop up his conclusions. In the end, I guess I'm grateful for the book, because I learned a lot from it. But I recommend anyone who reads it do so with critical thinking, and even read aloud some of the statements he makes. The flaws become really obvious when you hear it aloud, IMO.
reformedbeliever
New Member
Aaron said:
I'll second that......
Here is a sample from MacArthur that will indicate his position on the book and give an excellent example of his commitment to a literal interpretation whenever possible....
"But nowhere in Scripture is there a more detailed description of the coming judgment than in Revelation 6-18. Those chapters describe the future seven-year period known as the Tribulation. Summing up what they reveal about that period, God's judgment will rain down on the earth in the form of the seal, trumpet, and bowl judgments. Although those judgments will be worldwide in scope, they will focus particularly on Antichrist's world empire of Babylon. That empire will involve both a religious and a commercial aspect. At the midpoint of the Tribulation, Antichrist will destroy the false Babylonian religious system, which will be absorbed into commercial Babylon. Religion will not cease to exist, but will be restricted to the worship of Antichrist. The Babylon in view in chapter 18 is Antichrist's worldwide commercial empire, which will rule the world during the last three and a half years of the Tribulation. That Antichrist will be able to build the greatest commercial empire the world has ever known in the midst of the devastating judgments of the Tribulation reveals his incredible power.
God's destruction of commercial Babylon is the theme of chapter 18. It is thus a very somber chapter; it is a requiem, a dirge for the funeral of humanity. With the destruction of the satanic last and greatest human empire, the stage is set for the triumphant return of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Though some commentators view it as a symbol for Antichrist's whole godless system, the Babylon described in chapter 18 is most likely an actual city. It is called a city five times in the chapter (vv 10, 16, 18, 19, 21), and other features in the text imply that a literal city is in view since the text plainly describes Babylon as a city, and there is nothing in the context to indicate otherwise, it is safest to view it as a real city. The specific Old Testament prophecies of Babylon's destruction and perpetual desolation (Isa. 13:19—22; 14:22—23; Jer. 50:13,39; 51:37), as yet unfulfilled, also argue that chapter 18 describes an actual city. But while Babylon will be an actual city its influence will be worldwide. As Antichrist's capital city, it will be the hub of and represent his commercial empire. Thus, the judgment and destruction of Babylon will kill the head, and the rest of the body of Antichrist's whole world empire will follow in death.
Babylon will have received plenty of warnings of its impending doom by the occurrence of the events of chapter 18. The 144,000 Jewish evangelists, the two witnesses, the rest of the redeemed, and an angel flying in the heavens will have proclaimed the gospel message. That message includes the truth that God will judge those who refuse to repent. In addition, earlier in the Tribulation an angel specifically warned of Babylon's impending doom, crying out "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who has made all the nations drink of the wine of the passion of her immorality" (14:8). The angel spoke of Babylon's yet future fall as if it had already happened, emphasizing the certainty of its doom.
But despite the repeated warnings, the people of the world will refuse to repent (cf. 9:20-21; 16:9,11), and God's judgment will fall on Babylon... "(John MacArthur, Jr., Revelation 12-22, pgs 176-177).
"But nowhere in Scripture is there a more detailed description of the coming judgment than in Revelation 6-18. Those chapters describe the future seven-year period known as the Tribulation. Summing up what they reveal about that period, God's judgment will rain down on the earth in the form of the seal, trumpet, and bowl judgments. Although those judgments will be worldwide in scope, they will focus particularly on Antichrist's world empire of Babylon. That empire will involve both a religious and a commercial aspect. At the midpoint of the Tribulation, Antichrist will destroy the false Babylonian religious system, which will be absorbed into commercial Babylon. Religion will not cease to exist, but will be restricted to the worship of Antichrist. The Babylon in view in chapter 18 is Antichrist's worldwide commercial empire, which will rule the world during the last three and a half years of the Tribulation. That Antichrist will be able to build the greatest commercial empire the world has ever known in the midst of the devastating judgments of the Tribulation reveals his incredible power.
God's destruction of commercial Babylon is the theme of chapter 18. It is thus a very somber chapter; it is a requiem, a dirge for the funeral of humanity. With the destruction of the satanic last and greatest human empire, the stage is set for the triumphant return of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Though some commentators view it as a symbol for Antichrist's whole godless system, the Babylon described in chapter 18 is most likely an actual city. It is called a city five times in the chapter (vv 10, 16, 18, 19, 21), and other features in the text imply that a literal city is in view since the text plainly describes Babylon as a city, and there is nothing in the context to indicate otherwise, it is safest to view it as a real city. The specific Old Testament prophecies of Babylon's destruction and perpetual desolation (Isa. 13:19—22; 14:22—23; Jer. 50:13,39; 51:37), as yet unfulfilled, also argue that chapter 18 describes an actual city. But while Babylon will be an actual city its influence will be worldwide. As Antichrist's capital city, it will be the hub of and represent his commercial empire. Thus, the judgment and destruction of Babylon will kill the head, and the rest of the body of Antichrist's whole world empire will follow in death.
Babylon will have received plenty of warnings of its impending doom by the occurrence of the events of chapter 18. The 144,000 Jewish evangelists, the two witnesses, the rest of the redeemed, and an angel flying in the heavens will have proclaimed the gospel message. That message includes the truth that God will judge those who refuse to repent. In addition, earlier in the Tribulation an angel specifically warned of Babylon's impending doom, crying out "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who has made all the nations drink of the wine of the passion of her immorality" (14:8). The angel spoke of Babylon's yet future fall as if it had already happened, emphasizing the certainty of its doom.
But despite the repeated warnings, the people of the world will refuse to repent (cf. 9:20-21; 16:9,11), and God's judgment will fall on Babylon... "(John MacArthur, Jr., Revelation 12-22, pgs 176-177).
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TCGreek said:
I don't know of any REALLY good book on it. I still think the best guide to Revelation is Daniel, Joel, and Matthew 24.
Outside of Things to Come (just because it covers so much information), the only other book I'd check out is "The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church" by Marvin Rosenthal. It is written for the layman, and you can get all you need from it by skimming it rather than reading it in depth. But it makes some very important points most people seem to miss, even though they should be obvious from scripture. It does a great job of stripping away all the man-imposed "symbolic" complexities people have heaped upon scripture, and makes you realize just how simple the topic really is.
In the NT, I see specific lines between preterist and futurist applications. In Mt 24 for instance, Jesus does speak of the temple being "no stone left on another." Up until vs 6, He speaks of their own day. Afterward of the future.TCGreek said:
The OT has many more instances of dual application arising on account of Israel's rejection of Christ. This led to two fulfillments of many prophecies -- one to the church and one future to Israel. Example: Pentecost happened for the church in Acts 2. There will also be a fulfillment in the tribulation per Joel 2:31.
There is one interesting exception -- Rev 2-3. There, 3 aspects of the church are seen: 1) they are extant churches of John's time, 2) they are "types" of churches having certain works and errors during the church age, and 3) they are sequential prophecy of periods of the church (Ex: Pergammum and Thytira are "phases" of RCC). I believe within that one is able to distinguish the "5 foolish" and "5 wise virgins" and their respective "inheritances" in Christ's kingdom.
Another book you might consider is "The Road to Armageddon." I bought copies for my brothers and sister I liked it so much. Various authors cover various topics and, taken together, avoids some of those authors foibles. But checkout John Hinson and LaHaye's "Encyclopedia of the End Times" for topical articles and descriptions of the premil, amil, prewrath, preterist, etc. These have especially good and current insights into propecy.
skypair
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skypair said:
1. I quite agree with dual prophecies. I don't think that can be denied successfully.
2. I have difficulties seeing the seven churches as seven church ages. What part of the text warrants that interpretation?
3. Yes, I've see that one. This End Times thing can become quite costly. :laugh:
Many began to notice it when they read about Smyrna, the church tested 10 days. This was thought to be the period of Nero, etc. up till Constantine made Christianity the state religion. Larkin (among others) actually sets out the dates when each church had its "hay-day." But they all continue also as is noticed in Rev 2:22 -- Thyatira will actually be on the earth during the "great tribulation" (one of the "foolish virgins" IMO). She is, of course, the great harlot of Rev 17 that "rides the beast" (IMO before the rapture). Jezebel -- the woman (Mariolatry?) -- who taught the Jews to worship idols/icons and martyr the prophets fits with RCC also.TCGreek said:
Then we/I see Laodicea "spewed out" of the rapture (another "foolish virgin"). When I get home from Hawaii Wednesday, I can break out Larkin if you'd like (well, I think. Hmm. I may have packed it.).
Don't I know it! We are moving to TX soon and I been packing away books I forgot I had!
skypair
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