What are we expecting between Baptists and Roman Catholics?

[Reformed1689]

When you get back to me after you have completed your research based on this post, then we can talk. Until then, please do not parade your ignorance. Try and maintain some level of dignity.

That post was ridiculous actually. First, Lent practices have been observed since Apostolic times. Second, I never said it was found in the LBCF. I said that it was not in disagreement with LBCF and it isn't. There is nothing found within Lent that is out of accord with LBCF. Here is what the confession says and I will add bolding for emphasis, this is from 22.5 the same article where we find the RWP.

The reading of the Scriptures, [16] 1 Timothy 4:13; preaching, and hearing the Word of God, [17] 2 Timothy 4:2; Luke 8:18; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, singing with grace in our hearts to the Lord; [18] Colossians 3:16; Ephesians 5:19; as also the administration of baptism, [19] Matthew 28:19-20; and the Lord's supper, [20] 1 Corinthians 11:26; are all parts of religious worship of God, to be performed in obedience to him, with understanding, faith, reverence, and godly fear; moreover, solemn humiliation, with fastings, [21] Esther 4:16; Joel 2:12; and thanksgivings, upon special occasions, ought to be used in an holy and religious manner. [22] Exodus 15:1-19, Psalm 107.

Baptist Confession of Faith 1689, n.d.

 

[Reformed1689]

My concern is more for my fellow Baptists who have an unnatural attraction to Roman practices.

I think the bigger problem is pharisaical Baptists who assume too much.

 

[MartyF]

This board allows non-Baptists to participate in certain forums. I will not question the wisdom of that policy. What I will question is how comfortable Baptists are with Roman Catholic doctrine and practice? For the record, I was raised in a Roman Catholic home. I was baptized in a Roman Catholic church and confirmed at age 13. I did not officially abandon Roman Catholicism until I was in my late teens. That is when I came to faith in Christ. As I have matured in my Christian walk I realized how antithetical biblical Christianity is from Roman Catholicism. As far as this board is concerned, I am not really concerned about what Roman Catholics believe. I was one of them, so I have a pretty good grasp on their beliefs. I am more concerned about Baptists who seem open to different spiritual stimuli apart from the bible. Historically, Baptists have confessed that scripture alone is the sole authority for all matters of faith and practice. It seems, to this Baptist, that confession is becoming just window dressing in many circles. I think one reason for that is many Baptists have no idea what they believe. The may have been raised in the church but have never really wrestled with biblical doctrine. Because they are functionally ignorant of biblical truth, how can they be expected to trust or defend it? If they do understand biblical truth, they will also understand that there is no compatibility between biblical Christianity and Roman Catholicism. This is not a bash on Catholics. By God's grace and mercy, I pray that He marvelously saves them. I am more concerned about my fellow Baptists.

I have heard of a few Catholics who have adopted salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. A vast number of Catholics are Catholic by birth and culture, not by faith. This cultural Catholicism is not real faith but rather a need to belong to a group. 81% of Mexico announces themselves as Catholic, but how many really follow Jesus.

The same was true of protestantism in the U.S. People joined churches because it was the socially acceptable thing to do - not necessarily based on a living faith. I just think this dead faith is more prominent among the Catholics than it is the Baptists.

 

[Reformed]

That post was ridiculous actually

I am glad that we finally agree on something. Your post was ridiculous. Do not feel too bad about it. We all make mistakes.

As to rest of your post, you are trying desperately to scrape the bottom of the barrel for something that will bolster your position. I have already pointed out that Lent has no biblical warrant in this post, this post, and this post. Certain components of Lent are found in the Bible (prayer, fasting, good works), again, something I have pointed out here. Even though some of those components are in the Bible, they do not give warrant to the Roman Catholic observance of Lent.

Also, it was charitable of you to cite the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith out of its context. You quote 22.5, a wonderful paragraph on the subject of worship. However, you inadvertently missed the first paragraph of that chapter which reads:

22.1 The light of nature shews that there is a God, who hath lordship and sovereignty over all; is just, good and doth good unto all; and is therefore to be feared, loved, praised, called upon, trusted in, and served, with all the heart and all the soul, and with all the might. But the acceptable way of worshipping the true God, is instituted by himself, and so limited by his own revealed will, that he may not be worshipped according to the imagination and devices of men, nor the suggestions of Satan, under any visible representations, or any other way not prescribed in the Holy Scriptures. (emphasis mine)

This is where the Regulative Principle of Worship traces its genesis. We are to worship God in the manner prescribed by Scripture. Lent is not prescribed by Scripture. It is obvious that nothing is going to change your mind. I am saddened by that but it is what it is.

 

[Reformed]

I have heard of a few Catholics who have adopted salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.

Yes. I was one of them.

A vast number of Catholics are Catholic by birth and culture, not by faith.

That was the hardest thing for me. I was raised by my mother's side of the family. They were 1st generation Italian Catholics. They were horrified that I left the Catholic Church.

I just think this dead faith is more prominent among the Catholics than it is the Baptists.

Marty, I am not so sure about that. I am not a 20-something anymore. I see a rise in the Baptist genre of feel-good Christianity that has less of an emphasis on the authority of the Bible. Experience is trumping truth. It is an insidious thing that creeps up slowly. I am thankful for those churches that hold firm to the truth no matter what winds are blowing.

 

[Reformed1689]

I am glad that we finally agree on something. Your post was ridiculous. Do not feel too bad about it. We all make mistakes.

I was talking about your posts, definitely not mine.

22.1 The light of nature shews that there is a God, who hath lordship and sovereignty over all; is just, good and doth good unto all; and is therefore to be feared, loved, praised, called upon, trusted in, and served, with all the heart and all the soul, and with all the might. But the acceptable way of worshipping the true God, is instituted by himself, and so limited by his own revealed will, that he may not be worshipped according to the imagination and devices of men, nor the suggestions of Satan, under any visible representations, or any other way not prescribed in the Holy Scriptures. (emphasis mine)

This is where the Regulative Principle of Worship traces its genesis. We are to worship God in the manner prescribed by Scripture. Lent is not prescribed by Scripture. It is obvious that nothing is going to change your mind. I am saddened by that but it is what it is.

I am fully aware of paragraph 1 in article 22. I still hold my position. I'm sure there are things you do in your church that are not explicitly spelled out in Scripture to the level you are trying to take it to.

 

[kyredneck]

I think the bigger problem is pharisaical Baptists who assume too much.

...and snooty....

 

[Reformed]

I was talking about your posts, definitely not mine.



I am fully aware of paragraph 1 in article 22. I still hold my position. I'm sure there are things you do in your church that are not explicitly spelled out in Scripture to the level you are trying to take it to.

I know you meant my posts. I was using the rhetorical tool of sarcasm because sometimes it is the only fitting reply to someone who is being obtuse.

As to you holding to your position, that is fine. I will continue to call out error as I see it.

Soli Deo Gloria!

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The question of Lent and similar observances is dealt with in Galatians 4:9-10 and Colossians 2:16-23 as I pointed out in the previous thread.
The great question as it affects salvation is not whether one is using the right kind of bread (wafer??) or wine, but where one's faith is. Is it in Christ? In Him alone? If it is in one's baptism, the 'mass,' confession or any of the other 'sacraments,' or in Mary, praying the rosary or anything else, it is false faith. John 14:6; Acts of the Apostles 4:12.

 

[Reformed]

If it is in one's baptism, the 'mass,' confession or any of the other 'sacraments,' or in Mary, praying the rosary or anything else, it is false faith.

That is my main concern when it comes to Roman Catholic practices. You and I were once members of another online venue and there were members of that venue who became enamored with certain aspects of Roman Catholicism. Sadly, a few of them swam the Tiber. Having a birdseye view of those imperiling their faith is frightening. Is there any room for charity in these areas? Certainly. A lot of times all that is needed is gentle instruction. This is especially true for former Roman Catholics who have embraced biblical Christianity. I can tell you from experience that Roman Catholicism is as much cultural as it is theological. A former Roman Catholic will often face struggles in making a clean break. Patience is needed.

 

[Reformed]

Returning to (or maintaining) biblical worship has many benefits. First, we are worshipping in the manner God wants us to worship. Second, when we worship according to the biblical model, we are free from the contrivances of men and we are able to focus all our attention on meeting with God, and make no mistake, meeting with God is precisely what the church does during worship. There no longer is a Holy of Holies that God's people cannot approach. The Church has been gifted with the resident Holy Spirit who is present with God's people during worship. Believers are also sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, but during worship, the Spirit's function is to bring us nigh to God and God nigh to us.

While I have some personal issues with ARBCA, they have published an excellent white paper on biblical worship. You can read it here.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation?
“Therefore, sacramental baptism is the only means given by our Lord that assures salvation.”
In Praise of Holy Water
“The priest makes holy water by adding exorcized salt to exorcized water.”

Catholic salvation: Baptism with holy water.

Baptist salvation: Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Baptist witness of salvation: Baptism with wholly water.

Enough said.

 

[37818]

Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation?
“Therefore, sacramental baptism is the only means given by our Lord that assures salvation.”
In Praise of Holy Water
“The priest makes holy water by adding exorcized salt to exorcized water.”

Catholic salvation: Baptism with holy water.

Baptist salvation: Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Baptist witness of salvation: Baptism with wholly water.

Enough said.

Funny in a good way. (Sad for Catholics though.)

 

[Adonia]

Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation?
“Therefore, sacramental baptism is the only means given by our Lord that assures salvation.”
In Praise of Holy Water
“The priest makes holy water by adding exorcized salt to exorcized water.”

Catholic salvation: Baptism with holy water.

Baptist salvation: Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Baptist witness of salvation: Baptism with wholly water.

Enough said.

Once again you misrepresent the Catholic teaching on the issue.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Once again you misrepresent the Catholic teaching on the issue.

I did not intentionally "misrepresent the Catholic teaching on the issue."

I sourced the Catholic positions on how holy water is concocted and the results of baptism.

Please take this opportunity to set me straight.

 

[Adonia]

Even though some of those components are in the Bible, they do not give warrant to the Roman Catholic observance of Lent.

Let's say next January your Pastor gets up before the congregation and says: "Brothers and Sisters, I fear we have become too entangled in this world and to that end I have decided that beginning next Sunday and for the next 40 days we will fast, and pray, and give alms. On the first Sunday at the end of that 40 days we will have a solemn service recognizing the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. If this goes well, I think maybe we ought to do that very same thing next year, and the year following that". And your response would be?

 

[Adonia]

I did not intentionally "misrepresent the Catholic teaching on the issue."

I sourced the Catholic positions on how holy water is concocted and the results of baptism.

Please take this opportunity to set me straight.

Let us first go to the place where you got your information.The first paragraph starts out with listing some of the relevant passages concerning baptism.

Jesus said, "I solemnly assure you, no one can enter into Gods kingdom without being begotten of water and Spirit" (John 3:5). At the ascension, our Lord commanded the apostles, "Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations. Baptize them in the name of the father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Teach them to carry out everything I have commanded you" (Matt. 28:19-20). In another account of the ascension, Jesus added, "The man who believes in [the good news] and accepts Baptism will be saved; the man who refuses to believe in it will be condemned" (Mark 16:16).

Do you not agree with those Scripture passages?

Now, let us go to the Church's teaching on Baptism from the Catechism.

1213 Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit ,4 and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word."5

1215 This sacrament is also called "the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit," for it signifies and actually brings about the birth of water and the Spirit without which no one "can enter the kingdom of God."7

1238 The baptismal water is consecrated by a prayer of epiclesis (either at this moment or at the Easter Vigil). the Church asks God that through his Son the power of the Holy Spirit may be sent upon the water, so that those who will be baptized in it may be "born of water and the Spirit."40

1239 The essential rite of the sacrament follows: Baptism properly speaking. It signifies and actually brings about death to sin and entry into the life of the Most Holy Trinity through configuration to the Paschal mystery of Christ. Baptism is performed in the most expressive way by triple immersion in the baptismal water. However, from ancient times it has also been able to be conferred by pouring the water three times over the candidate's head.

Your initial comment said that our baptism was just of Holy Water, so can you now admit that the Church teaches that the Holy Spirit and Baptism are connected?

The following I got from the same place where you got your information on Holy Water. "The holy water in churches today, I believe, is typically blessed not made, the priest saying a prayer of blessing and making a sign of the cross over it, often in the context of Mass".

Once again, a relevant bit of information that for some reason you did not want to share with the rest of us. (Funny how you highlighted the part that had the word "exorcism" in it instead). But any way, I hope that all helps.

 

[Reformed]

Let's say next January your Pastor gets up before the congregation and says: "Brothers and Sisters, I fear we have become too entangled in this world and to that end I have decided that beginning next Sunday and for the next 40 days we will fast, and pray, and give alms. On the first Sunday at the end of that 40 days we will have a solemn service recognizing the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. If this goes well, I think maybe we ought to do that very same thing next year, and the year following that". And your response would be?

There are two ways I can respond to you. I can go point-by-point which leads to nothing but an endless back-and-forth that will convince no one other than ourselves. The other way is simply to state what I have said numerous times, Lent is not found in scripture. I am not saying that certain component parts of Lent are not found in the Bible. Prayer, fasting, repentance, and giving are all aspects of the Christian life, but Lent is not found in scripture. Lent is preceded by Ash Wednesday and culminates during the Roman Catholic Holy Week. Its purpose is to prepare the individual Roman Catholic for Easter rite. Lent is part of a greater whole.

For the first 20-years of my life, I was a Roman Catholic, so I admit that I am more sensitive than most when it comes to reacting against Roman Catholicism. Romanism does not believe in Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, or Sola Gratia. In the Roman system, scripture is not, "the only sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience".1 Faith is mingled with works to create a synergistic theological system. Lent is one part of that system. I am not saying this with malice. As a Protestant, I am calling out the elephant in the room. For the umpteenth time, Lent is not found in scripture.

So, if Lent is not found in scripture, what is my response to those Protestants that think it is OK to observe it? I think they are, at best, misguided. I am arguing against it vigorously on this message board because I believe it has no warrant in scripture. But if an individual decides to observe it, what can I do about that? My opinion has been registered and that is all I can do. As far as you, well, you are a Roman Catholic. I expect you to do what Roman Catholics do.

1. 1689 LBC, 1.1

 

[Adonia]

For the umpteenth time, Lent is not found in scripture.

And neither is a faith tradition that is known as "Reformed Baptist", yet you follow it.

 

[Reformed]

And neither is a faith tradition that is known as "Reformed Baptist", yet you follow it.

As a Roman Catholic, you must condemn any schism apart from the Roman Catholic Church. Are you, as a Roman Catholic, trying to make a determination between the different types of Baptists? I think not.

Lent cannot be found in scripture.