What Bible Verses Support Punishment/Hell Not Being Eternal?

[westtexas]

Don't rely on a message board, read the arguments for yourself then see if they are biblical.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0595143423/?tag=baptis04-20

Grasshopper, have you read Fudge's book?

Westtexas

 

[Alive in Christ]

Van posted...

There is no question that those whose name is not written in the Lamb's book of life are thrown into the lake of fire. There is no question that the fire is eternal for Satan and his co-horts suffer forever and ever. There is no question that the lost suffer torment. So what is possible is after a person is punished justly for their misdeeds, they are destroyed, rather than eternal torment. The punishment, confinement, separation from God, will certainly be eternal.

What makes this a possible option is no verse says eternal torment for humans, with the caveat that some posters say the word translated punishment actually means torment. And the verse that says the smoke from their torment will rise forever and ever might be referring to the ongoing generation of smoke from torment. That is why the majority of people accept the speculation.

I agree that this is a very reasonable, and scripturally supported, option.

 

[Van]

And I would agree that it is reasonable and scripturally possible option. But it is based on assumptions, either that eternal punishment would be better translated as eternal torment, with the majority of scholars disagreeing, or that smoke rising from torment forever indicates on going torment, rather than the eternal result of being tormented.

On the other hand we have the difficulty of being punished for our misdeeds, and the punishment being "more tolerable" for some than for others. This suggests differing punishment for differing sins, which is inconsistent with a one size fits all "eternal torment."

 

[Alive in Christ]

Van...

When I posted this...

I agree that this is a very reasonable, and scripturally supported, option.

...I meant that I was agreeing that what YOU are posting is reasonable and scripturally supported.

I'm not in agreement with the one opposing you.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

InTheLight,

re: "Jude 7: In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire."
　
　
Is Sodom and Gomorrah still burning today? If you went to Israel today, would smoke still be going up and the flames still burning where Sodom and Gomorrah used to be? Or might their destruction be eternal as an effect of the fire?

Jude 7 shouldn't be too hard to explain when one considers that it cannot be talking about Sodom and Gomorrah the buildings, trees, roads, etc., but rather it is speaking of Sodom and Gomorrah the people.

Buildings do not give themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion, but people do.

And since the Word of God says they suffer eternal fire, they suffer eternal fire even at this very minute.

Of course the physical cities are not still burning... but the people are just as God's Word says they are.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Should we assume the modern translations got it wrong when they translate Kolasis as punishment, rather than torment or pain? Should we discard modern scholarship in order support doctrine based on assumption? I think not. The root meaning of the word has to do with penal confinement, rather than torment.

I disagree. Had the Greek simply meant penal confinement rather than torment, the pre-KJV versions would not have used 'torment' 'paine' and 'payne' in Matthew 25:46.

 

[convicted1]

There is no question that those whose name is not written in the Lamb's book of life are thrown into the lake of fire. There is no question that the fire is eternal for Satan and his co-horts suffer forever and ever. There is no question that the lost suffer torment. So what is possible is after a person is punished justly for their misdeeds, they are destroyed, rather than eternal torment. The punishment, confinement, separation from God, will certainly be eternal.

What makes this a possible option is no verse says eternal torment for humans, with the caveat that some posters say the word translated punishment actually means torment. And the verse that says the smoke from their torment will rise forever and ever might be referring to the ongoing generation of smoke from torment. That is why the majority of people accept the speculation.

For me the issue is not justifying either eternal torment or destruction after being tormented according to God's justice for misdeeds, the issue is folks spreading disunity who claim either view is doctrine when it is based on assumptions.

Brother, you or anyone who would preach this(I am not saying you do/would), could cause a lot of people to suffer torment. By saying this, the lost that would hear this preached from the "stand", would think, "well, I can live my sinful life, and when I die, I will burn up, and be no more!" Then when they stand before Jesus, and are cast into the lake of fire for eternity, they will realize that they were told the wrong thing when it is too late.

 

[convicted1]

I believe that the torment of the lost will be suffering in the lake of fire for eternity, and not be cast in, burned up, and thats it. Why do people die and go to hell? Because they chose to obey Satan, and not God. No one can say that Satan made them do it. He influenced them, but ultimately, they chose to follow his lead. Now, if they obeyed Satan right up to death, why should their punishment be any less than his(Satan's)???

Rev. 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Isa. 5:14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

Mark 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mark 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

See, the reason why torment will be forever is because all of us, saints AND sinners will get spiritual bodies.....only ours will be glorified, just like Jesus' most glorious body. This body that they get, will never burn up, because its not a fleshly body like we have now. That is why they will suffer torment for ever and ever.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[rstrats]

convicted1,

re: "... the reason why torment will be forever is because all of us, saints AND sinners will get spiritual bodies..."

I'm not aware of any scripture that says that. What do you have in mind?

 

[InTheLight]

Jude 7 shouldn't be too hard to explain when one considers that it cannot be talking about Sodom and Gomorrah the buildings, trees, roads, etc., but rather it is speaking of Sodom and Gomorrah the people.

Buildings do not give themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion, but people do.

And since the Word of God says they suffer eternal fire, they suffer eternal fire even at this very minute.

Of course the physical cities are not still burning... but the people are just as God's Word says they are.

Thank you Steadfast.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Thank you Steadfast.

You are welcome.

I have seen the Jude 7 verse brought up many times in an effort to prove that people will not burn forever in hell/the lake of fire.

People always overlook the fact that it was the inhabitants of the cities that were committing the abominable acts that brought the judgment of God down on their heads, it was not the inanimate buildings, trees, etc., that were guilty of sin.

This was revealed to me several months back.

 

[rstrats]

As usually ends up being the case we’re just going around in circles now. You’ve stated your positions, and I’ve stated mine. I still don’t understand why you folks want to torture someone for eternity simply because they haven’t meet certain requirements during there few short years of life but I guess it takes all kinds Nor do I understand why some of you want to believe that the supreme being knows before he creates an individual that he will eventually be tossing the person into the lake of fire yet nevertheless goes ahead and creates the person anyway.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

As usually ends up being the case we’re just going around in circles now. You’ve stated your positions, and I’ve stated mine. I still don’t understand why you folks want to torture someone for eternity simply because they haven’t meet certain requirements during there few short years of life but I guess it takes all kinds Nor do I understand why some of you want to believe that the supreme being knows before he creates an individual that he will eventually be tossing the person into the lake of fire yet nevertheless goes ahead and creates the person anyway.

I want to beleive what the Bible teaches because it is God's holy Word. How I feel about it is beside the point. And if I find myself in opposition to it, or repulsed by its teaching, then it only manifests a problem with me (sin) and not with the Word of God.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

As usually ends up being the case we’re just going around in circles now. You’ve stated your positions, and I’ve stated mine. I still don’t understand why you folks want to torture someone for eternity simply because they haven’t meet certain requirements during there few short years of life but I guess it takes all kinds Nor do I understand why some of you want to believe that the supreme being knows before he creates an individual that he will eventually be tossing the person into the lake of fire yet nevertheless goes ahead and creates the person anyway.

Not one of us wants to 'torture' anyone for any length of time.

The Word of God teaches the eternal torments of the unrighteous. He will do that which He has said He will do, whether man likes it or not.

All things were created for God's pleasure. Yet not all things please God. For instance, He is not pleased with the death of the wicked. God did not create man to be wicked, man chooses to be wicked.

Scripture reveals that the wages (payment) for sin is death, (separation from God) but the gift of God is eternal life (turn ye and live "Ezekiel 18:32) through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Man has a choice, turn from sin and live, or continue in sin and be separated from God for all eternity. Separation is not the only penalty man incurs from God's wrath. Eternal torment (Matthew 25:46; Mark 9:43-48) is also part of the sentence passed upon man for his wickedness.

Like it or not, that is what God determined to happen to those who die without Christ.

 

[convicted1]

Not one of us wants to 'torture' anyone for any length of time.

The Word of God teaches the eternal torments of the unrighteous. He will do that which He has said He will do, whether man likes it or not.

All things were created for God's pleasure. Yet not all things please God. For instance, He is not pleased with the death of the wicked. God did not create man to be wicked, man chooses to be wicked.

Scripture reveals that the wages (payment) for sin is death, (separation from God) but the gift of God is eternal life (turn ye and live "Ezekiel 18:32) through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Man has a choice, turn from sin and live, or continue in sin and be separated from God for all eternity. Separation is not the only penalty man incurs from God's wrath. Eternal torment (Matthew 25:46; Mark 9:43-48) is also part of the sentence passed upon man for his wickedness.

Like it or not, that is what God determined to happen to those who die without Christ.

Very well stated!! You put together in a few words, that I clouldn't have written in a 1,000 page novel!! Bravo!! Encore!! Encore!! Encore!!

(((((AMEN)))))!!!!!

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Very well stated!! You put together in a few words, that I clouldn't have written in a 1,000 page novel!! Bravo!! Encore!! Encore!! Encore!!

(((((AMEN)))))!!!!!

Reader's Digest Condensed Version?
Cliff Notes?

LOL

 

[rstrats]

Steadfast Fred,

re: "Not one of us wants to 'torture' anyone for any length of time."

So I don’t understand why you try to interpret scripture to the contrary. Why not concentrate on all of the scriptures that say one way or another that the consequence on sin is death - and take death to mean the cessation and absence of life? Eccl. 9:5 - "...but the dead know not anything...".
　

re: "The Word of God teaches the eternal torments of the unrighteous."

There is not a single scripture that absolutely has to be interpreted no other way than to mean that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment. With the possible exception of the devil’s fate in Revelation 20:10 in the KJV, "torment" and "eternal" are never found in conjunction with each other.
　

re: "All things were created for God's pleasure. Yet not all things please God."

So knowing before He creates a person that He will eventually be tossing the person into the lake of fire, why do you think that He goes ahead and creates the person anyway? What pleasure can He get from that?
　

re: "Scripture reveals that the wages (payment) for sin is death, (separation from God)..."

It is also separation from everything else.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Steadfast Fred,

re: "Not one of us wants to 'torture' anyone for any length of time."

So I don’t understand why you try to interpret scripture to the contrary. Why not concentrate on all of the scriptures that say one way or another that the consequence on sin is death - and take death to mean the cessation and absence of life? Eccl. 9:5 - "...but the dead know not anything...".

When Solomon spoke of the dead knowing not, he was not saying the dead are not conscious of anything at all. They are conscious of their surroundings, Jesus makes this clear when He tells the story of the rich man and Lazarus. What they are not aware of is things that are going on on the earth above them.

If the dead were not aware of their surroundings, it would make no sense for Jesus to say that Lazarus was in torments, now would it? It would make no sense for Jesus to say the rich man was desiring relief from the pain he was suffering.

re: "The Word of God teaches the eternal torments of the unrighteous."

There is not a single scripture that absolutely has to be interpreted no other way than to mean that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment. With the possible exception of the devil’s fate in Revelation 20:10 in the KJV, "torment" and "eternal" are never found in conjunction with each other.
　

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Prior to 1600, the word 'kolasis' was translated as 'pain' or torment' "Punishment" in that verse means pain and torment. "aionios" means perpetual, never-ending.

Revelation 14:9-11 reveals it is not just the devil that will suffer eternal torment, but all those who choose to serve him will suffer the same torment he does.

Revelation 14:9-11 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

The whosoever of verse 11 are those who die without Christ... those who worship the beast and his image. There are millions today who fit that category. These will spend eternity in torment if they do not turn to Christ before they die.

re: "All things were created for God's pleasure. Yet not all things please God."

So knowing before He creates a person that He will eventually be tossing the person into the lake of fire, why do you think that He goes ahead and creates the person anyway? What pleasure can He get from that?

　
God gives everyone a chance. He is not willing that any should perish, but that all come to repentance. He sent His Son to die for all mankind. Jesus said if He was lifted up, He would draw all men unto Himself. He is drawing all men, offering them eternal life. But He is not a puppetmaster. Man must make the choice to come to Him. If he does, he will find rest unto his soul. But if not, he will have no rest, but will be tormented day and night for ever and ever as the Word of God declares.

re: "Scripture reveals that the wages (payment) for sin is death, (separation from God)..."

It is also separation from everything else.

There is one thing it is not separation from... eternal torment in the lake of fire.