Nah, Preservation of the Saints is better and more Biblical. 2 Timothy 1:12; John 10:28; Romans 14:4; 2 Timothy 2:13; Jude 1:24
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What Camp Are You?
- Thread starter Reformed1689
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Nah, Preservation of the Saints is better and more Biblical. 2 Timothy 1:12; John 10:28; Romans 14:4; 2 Timothy 2:13; Jude 1:24
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Steven Lawson actually calls it "Preserving Grace"
I am in the camp that believes there was a legitimate church apart from the Roman Catholic Church (and apart from the Protestant Church). So I reject the Reformed theory of Penal Substitution, the Lutheran theory of Satisfaction, and Aquinas’ theory of Substitution. This means that I reject both Calvinism and Arminianism (Armiianism is based off Calvin's view of the Atonement). I believe that there are Christians present among all denominations but that the Bride exists outside of denominational boundaries.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Primitive Baptists actually call it 'Preservation of the Saints'.
In Fact, I like Dr. Lawson's titles for the Doctrine's overall:
- Radical Depravity
- Sovereign Election
- Definite Atonement
- Irresistible Call
- Preserving Grace
Works are e
Yes, but I believe perseverance in faith does not demand perseverance in some specific measure or manifest standard of good works (thief on the cross, Lot, etc.).
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
I don't know of a Calvinist that believes that either. But you should have works to show the fruit of your faith. Without works faith is dead (or nonexistent).
That does not sound good , Hank I am sure Cassidy can waitMugwump - always have been but will find out for sure in the not to distant future.
At which time I will look around for Dr Cassidy for a discussion
The proof of your preservation will be your perseverance or endurance. Matthew 10:22; 24:13; Mark 13:13; Romans 12:12; 1 Corinthians 13:7; 2 Timothy 2:10, 12; Hebrews 10:32; James 1:12; 5:12; 1 Peter 2:20 (the same Greek word for all these - hupomeno).
I am very uneasy about OSAS. There is a sense in which it is true, but the 'P' in Tulip stands for the Perseverance of the Saints, which IMO is much better and more Biblical (Matthew 24:13).
The Lord Jesus said, "But you do not believe because you are not My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand" (John 10:26-28).
So first of all, one does not become a sheep by believing; one believes because one is a sheep.
Secondly, Christ's sheep are absolutely secure.
Thirdly, Christ's sheep are a special breed. They are distinguished by their ears and their feet. They hear the shepherd's voice and they follow Him. Both verbs are in the Present Tense, which in Greek denotes continuity. They are hearing the shepherd's voice and they are, on a continuing basis, following Him. So if someone had professed faith at some point in the past, but was not now following Him or hearing His voice (whether read or preached), on what basis would he suppose that he might be a sheep? Would he not be more likely to hear the Shepherd speak the words of Matthew 7:21-23? Christ's sheep He knows from eternity; others He does not know at all. 1 Corinthians 10:12.
We are to give heed to passages such as 2 Corinthians 13:5 which reads, "Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test?" A cold, unrepentant heart is not the hallmark of a child of God. It is not that a person can lose their salvation, it may be that they never had it to begin with. When my daughter was in high school she lamented that so many of her Christian friends had abandoned the faith. I told her, "Not every professor is a possessor."
Philippians 2:13-13 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
Actually, it was at the Synod of Dordt that the five pillars of Calvinism (TULIP) originated. The Remonstrants (the opponents of Calvinism) came up with their own points. However, they were not the originators of what has become known as TULIP.
I am not sure of @37818 's point, but it is of note that the Calvinistic response (what Baptist consider to be "Calvinism") was an answer to Arminianism. And at the time Arminianism had been an accepted position within Calvinism (when James Arminius died he did so as a Calvinist). As with many theological stances, Calvinism narrowed itself after much debate. What is not often considered are those who were non-Calvinists pre-Dort.
Correct. The response was the statement by the Synod of Dordt that became known as TULIP. I may have my order of things backward. I am not sure. The result works out the same.
I don't know that you had it backwards, but I am old and growing senile so it was hard for me to grasp.
I'd use the KISS thing (keep it simple stupid.....me being stupid) but I see that Ran the man is no longer with us.
A quick click of the keyboard took care of that problem before the official boot. I call that "the peacemaker". LOL
Keep on rockin' dude.
I am some of both "schools". I believe that salvation is open to ALL during their mortal lives, I believe that God has pre-chosen some for special service to Him, as he did Moses, Jeremiah, the apostles, etc. And I do NOT believe God ever created someone predestinated for hell, no matter what.
Actually, many of the Reformers agree with you. They do not believe in something called active reprobation. They believe God passed over those who are not elect; He did not actually choose them for reprobation.
If God chooses to passover someone He has chosen them for that. Trying to act as there is a difference is ridiculous.