What Constitutes a Depraved Nature?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BD17: HP has been doing .....

HP: You are long on accusations and short on evidence. This thread is not about the genealogy of Christ, but you can certainly start a thread on that subject again. I would be happy to discuss it with you. Show the list that you can do something other than try and derail a thread and cast about personal attacks. Substantiate your allegations on a thread designated to the subject you speak of. :thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Speaking of Scriptures that support ones position, we have been told that Psalms 58 supports moral depravity from birth or original sin. In light of the often repeated warning to pay attention to context, how does the context of this passage support the notion of a universal depraved nature from birth or original sin?

 

[DHK]

Speaking of Scriptures that support ones position, we have been told that Psalms 58 supports moral depravity from birth or original sin. In light of the often repeated warning to pay attention to context, how does the context of this passage support the notion of a universal depraved nature from birth or original sin?

First, if you cannot answer Psalm 51:5, what is the point of proceeding to other Scriptures. It is safe to conclude that in any reasonable debate you have been defeated on that one verse alone.

However to go on:
The KJV states:
(Psa 58:3) The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

The "God's Word" Translation gives a good take on the meaning of this verse as it translates it this way:

(Psa 58:3) Even inside the womb wicked people are strangers to God. From their birth liars go astray.

This verse definitely teaches the depravity of man. How can it teach otherwise. From inside the womb the wicked are strangers. They are estranged from God. That is what depravity is all about. The result of a sin nature is being separated from God; thus the necessity of being born again, as Jesus stated to Nicodemus.

Paul wrote to the Ephesians:
(Eph 2:1) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
--They were dead. They got saved. Now they are alive--alive in Christ. They were dead--separated from God. They are alive--in fellowship with God.
They were dead because they had a sin nature. They still have a sin nature and always will until they receive their glorified bodies. But a saved person has a new nature as well. The old nature will never be completely eradicated. We fight against every day.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: The KJV states:
(Psa 58:3) The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

The "God's Word" Translation gives a good take on the meaning of this verse as it translates it this way:

(Psa 58:3) Even inside the womb wicked people are strangers to God. From their birth liars go astray.

HP: What is the context of this passage? Is it a doctrinal dissertation on original sin? By the way, have you had time to check out the facts concerning Edersheim’s comment on the complete and entire Rabbinic denial of original sin?

Do you see any contrast in the chapter between the wicked and the righteous? Do you honestly believe that David had it in for babies, considering them wicked and desiring that God would break their teeth in their mouths?

Get a load of what this would look like. God in a nursery with innocent infants, breaking out the teeth of babies (that first have no teeth,) while David looking through the glass rejoices at the bloody beatings. Are you certain this is what David desired to see?

I am going to save all comment on the other verses until we go over this chapter carefully first.

 

[DHK]

Do you see any contrast in the chapter between the wicked and the righteous? Do you honestly believe that David had it in for babies, considering them wicked and desiring that God would break their teeth in their mouths?

Facts are facts. David stated facts regardless of the context here. It is the same as asking: Do you believe babies will go to heaven whether they are from a Hindu family or from a Christian family? Does the family matter to you? That is not the subject here. It is not predestination. It is the depravity of man. Man has a sin nature; all men--no matter what their family background is--unrighteous or righteous; pagan or Christian; it doesn't matter.

The wicked are estranged from the womb. They are depraved.
This fact comes from God. You can believe it or remain in a state of unbelief. The choice is yours.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Do you see any contrast in the chapter between the wicked and the righteous? Do you honestly believe that David had it in for babies, considering them wicked and desiring that God would break their teeth in their mouths?

 

[Marcia]

Marcia, If I stepped out on a broken limb as you obviously have, I would bail as well. :smilewinkgrin:

Please don't assume I'm bailing just because I am not online for awhile. I'm very busy with ministry. I led 4 workshops at a christian education convention on Saturday and was out all day Sunday. Today I was catching up.

I answer emails to my website every day. Sometimes I don't have time to go to the BB. Also, many times I get tired of the BB and take breaks.

Also, what broken limb did I step on?

If I "bail" it will because I think this thread has become futile. I have posted and posted scripture to support my view but if you don't agree, fine. I am not going to spend time trying to persuade anyone.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Marcia: 'Everyone' who reads the Hebrew translates this as David saying he was born a sinner.

HP: Good to see your busy. :thumbs:

If I remember correctly I simply felt that you made a statement that you had no way of supporting, and therefore placing yourself out on a limb. No big deal.

 

[Marcia]

HP: Good to see your busy. :thumbs:

If I remember correctly I simply felt that you made a statement that you had no way of supporting, and therefore placing yourself out on a limb. No big deal.

As I recall, I've supported what I've said with scripture, at least the view that people are born with sin natures and need regeneration and redemption. There is no indication in the Bible that people are born regenerated. How would they lose this regeneration? That would also mean people could lose salvation and I think that is against scripture.

I think the shoe is on the other foot here, HP, as far as placing one's self out on a limb.

 

[DHK]

Do you see any contrast in the chapter between the wicked and the righteous? Do you honestly believe that David had it in for babies, considering them wicked and desiring that God would break their teeth in their mouths?

The psalm is an imprecatory psalm. It is a psalm of God's judgment. That fact is irrelevant. The relevant fact to the doctrine of the depravity of man is that God states that mankind is in sin from the womb. That is the fact that is stated. Your reaction to that is unbelief. You need to deal with your unbelief.

 

[trustitl]

That is the fact that is stated. Your reaction to that is unbelief. You need to deal with your unbelief.
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You say you take words seriously DHK. Unbelief is a strong word. Be careful. Did you really mean disagreement?

I do not think you and Marcia are in unbelief, I just think you are wrong. There is a big difference.

 

[trustitl]

Please don't assume I'm bailing just because I am not online for awhile. I'm very busy with ministry. I led 4 workshops at a christian education convention on Saturday and was out all day Sunday. Today I was catching up.

I answer emails to my website every day. Sometimes I don't have time to go to the BB. Also, many times I get tired of the BB and take breaks.

If I "bail" it will because I think this thread has become futile. I have posted and posted scripture to support my view but if you don't agree, fine. I am not going to spend time trying to persuade anyone.

You and I are in full agreement here!

Let's all make sure we don't have:
"a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions, and constant friction between men"

"flee from these things, you man of God,(and you too Marcia) and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance and gentleness. Fight the good fight of faith"

God bless you Marcia as you fight the fight of faith.

Have you found honey? Eat only what you need, That you not have it in excess and vomit it.

 

[trustitl]

Please consider carefully what you say here. Remember that this is an answer to my post in reference to the members of BB. You are stating that your doctrine, in opposition to 99% of the board, is the correct one even though you can't substantiate it with Scripture. You have stated that God has revealed it to you. And now you have stated that God has led you here "to have me say against all odds and it whatever setting...it seems clear...I am in the midst of a needy mission field.

You believe that the Baptist Board is a needy mission field to disseminate your doctrine which goes against all orthodox Christian doctrine throughout the centuries. Because I call you on it you report me. But now you have exposed yourself by deeming this board to be your personal mission field.

Now, answer me honestly. In the interest of fair play: Who do you think should be the one reported?

Some years ago the RCC's came on here, and because they considered this their mission field were all promptly banned, and from that time on are not allowed entrance into this board.
It is a privilege to post here; not a right. This is not your personal mission field. If that is your attitude I suggest you go somewhere else.

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Am I missing something? I thought this was for those of us in "Other Christian denominations".[Personal attack deleted]

 

[pinoybaptist]

............................ There is no indication in the Bible that people are born regenerated. .....................................

Actually there is at least one person the Bible indicated was regenerate in the womb. John the Baptist. (now you Baptists. you can't claim that as well, you hear ?:laugh: ).

 

[Marcia]

Actually there is at least one person the Bible indicated was regenerate in the womb. John the Baptist. (now you Baptists. you can't claim that as well, you hear ?:laugh: ).

I actually thought of this before so I have an answer for it!

I think that John the Baptist, being the last OT prophet, was given the Holy Spirit in the womb probably temporarily at that point just as the OT prophets were. This means he was not indwelt by the Holy Spirit; no one was until after Pentecost.

 

[Marcia]

You and I are in full agreement here!

Let's all make sure we don't have:
"a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions, and constant friction between men"

"flee from these things, you man of God,(and you too Marcia) and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance and gentleness. Fight the good fight of faith"

God bless you Marcia as you fight the fight of faith.

Thank you for your encouraging words!

I agree with you! :wavey:

 

[DHK]

Am I missing something? I thought this was for those of us in "Other Christian denominations".

My position is easily defended and in that I am not offended at all.
Let me state again: This board is not a board for advertising one's personal agenda. If anyone considers it "their mission field" (as former Catholics did) they are in danger of being banned. That is not my threat. And I am not threatening anyone by stating that. That is clearly stated in the BB rules. It is not a person's mission field to convert others to their doctrine. It is for debate, yes; a mission field, no. Those are the rules. If you need to review them, they are at the bottom of every page.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Facts are facts. ......

HP: Facts are indeed facts DHK. The facts are, if you are correct in your assessment of this passage pointing to universal moral depravity from birth that David would rejoice to see, i.e., God breaking the teeth in the mouths of every child born. David desired that every child born would melt away as water, not ever see the sun, and that they be cut into pieces!

That is the end of your suppose interpretation of this verse if in fact it is speaking of a universal depraved nature from birth. Now you have a choice DHK. You can believe this in stark contradiction to every vestige of common sense and reason and the clear context of this passage to the contrary, or you can remain in a state of unbelief to the true context of this passage. The choice is indeed yours.:thumbs:

Ps 58:6 ¶ Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD.
7 Let them melt away as waters which run continually: when he bendeth his bow to shoot his arrows, let them be as cut in pieces.
8 As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun.

 

[trustitl]

My position is easily defended and in that I am not offended at all.
Let me state again: This board is not a board for advertising one's personal agenda. If anyone considers it "their mission field" (as former Catholics did) they are in danger of being banned. That is not my threat. And I am not threatening anyone by stating that. That is clearly stated in the BB rules. It is not a person's mission field to convert others to their doctrine. It is for debate, yes; a mission field, no. Those are the rules. If you need to review them, they are at the bottom of every page.

I read through the posting rules and could not find the part where it says you cannot try to "convert" HP to a particular doctrine. If you could cut and paste it for me I would appreciate it. I looked it over 3 times and must have missed it.

I see you think he is in "unbelief" and apparently in need of salvation. Does that mean you think he needs to be converted?

You need to deal with your unbelief.

I also remember you warning others about questioning their salvation. Any thoughts on that?

And you are concerned with other's personal attacks?

 

[DHK]

HP: Facts are indeed facts DHK. The facts are, if you are correct in your assessment of this passage pointing to universal moral depravity from birth that David would rejoice to see, i.e., God breaking the teeth in the mouths of every child born. David desired that every child born would melt away as water, not ever see the sun, and that they be cut into pieces!

Do you ever consider context HP? Where does it say that David would rejoice to see God breaking teeth in the mouths of every child born. Read the psalm!!!!!!!!!

Psalms 58:3-4 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;
--The subject is not children. The subject are "the wicked." In one verse it tells us that they are depraved or sinners from the womb. In the following verses it continues to describe their depravity, their wickedness, and then their judgment.

Psalms 58:6 Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD.
--This has nothing to do with infants, but with the wicked, per se. Why do you read "babies" into the verse? Do you just read whatever you want into the verse? Context HP, Context! The context is not infants.

That is the end of your suppose interpretation of this verse if in fact it is speaking of a universal depraved nature from birth. Now you have a choice DHK. You can believe this in stark contradiction to every vestige of common sense and reason and the clear context of this passage to the contrary, or you can remain in a state of unbelief to the true context of this passage. The choice is indeed yours.

I choose to believe what the Bible plainly teaches in both Psalm 51:5 (which you have been unable to refute), and Psalm 58:3, which has been adequately explained. The psalm speaks of the wicked, not infants as you wrongly suppose. There is, however, a factual statement made about infants. To put it in a very clear manner we should consider another translation:

(Psa 58:3) Even inside the womb wicked people are strangers to God. From their birth liars go astray.
--There is a fact that cannot be denied. It is applicable to the unrighteous and righteous alike. It is a universal truth.