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What Constitutes a Depraved Nature?
- Thread starter Heavenly Pilgrim
- Start date
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Is it possible or did it happen? What about a third of the angels that followed satan and satan himself? Marcia, tell us why they sinned? What made them do it? I want to know why.
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
Revelation 20:7-9 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Even after a period of a thousand years under the direct rule of Christ, when the curse on the earth has been removed, when justice will be meted out with a "rod of iron" by Christ himself, when the lion will lie down with the lamb, when nature will turn back into perfect harmony, even then when Satan is let loose once again, there will be a great number that will follow him and rebel against the One who will physically be in their very presence and has already revealed Himself as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
I think this is a foundational issue that Marcia is wondering about. I am assuming you are honest when you say you don't know what is meant by "flesh". Your inability to understand this IMO is you have been taught to look at it as something it isn't. The modern translations have complicated it by making it a sinful nature in some instances when it fits their doctrines. This leads to all kinds of crazy notions such as Paul's thorn in his flesh being homosexual desires.Marcia said:
When I ask my children what flesh is they think of meat, skin, muscles. When John said the Word became flesh he used that word because it was the best word, the clearest word, to show that Jesus had skin, muscles, tissue... That he was a man.
God created Adam and Eve and put them in a body of flesh. When they sinned nothing happened to their flesh. Please explain why you think it did when God says that they would have lived forever in the Garden.
Is it not true that the reason man dies is that flesh is corruptible? It was never intended to be an eternal state of existence.
I Cor. 15:50 "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."
Why did Jesus say the mind is willing but the flesh is weak instead of the flesh is fallen?
Is it not because the flesh is merely a weak entity by design? When God created it he said it was good and we have turned that into some supernatural existence for Adam and Eve. God merely declared that the flesh was created perfectly for which it was intended: a place for man to be tested.
That test is still going on today. God is spirit and is looking for those who will worship him is spirit and in truth rather than live for the things of the world.
In perfect DHK form he said "Your view sounds like gnosticism" but didn't say I was a gnostic. Whatever. He also says this is a heresy and I assume he would say I am not a heretic. Just to clear it up: I am not off the deep end and am not offended for I expect such from you based on your posts in the past.
What is interesting is I see just the opposite as true. Those advocating the opposite of me are really saying the flesh is evil while I am still calling it good, just as God did in Genesis. Calling it fallen may sound better, but there is no scriptural support for it. It is merely weak by design of the Creator and Adam and Eve proved that by giving into those desires.
Is it not because the flesh is merely a weak entity by design? When God created it he said it was good and we have turned that into some supernatural existence for Adam and Eve. God merely declared that the flesh was created perfectly for which it was intended: a place for man to be tested.
That test is still going on today. God is spirit and is looking for those who will worship him is spirit and in truth rather than live for the things of the world.
In perfect DHK form he said "Your view sounds like gnosticism" but didn't say I was a gnostic. Whatever. He also says this is a heresy and I assume he would say I am not a heretic. Just to clear it up: I am not off the deep end and am not offended for I expect such from you based on your posts in the past.
What is interesting is I see just the opposite as true. Those advocating the opposite of me are really saying the flesh is evil while I am still calling it good, just as God did in Genesis. Calling it fallen may sound better, but there is no scriptural support for it. It is merely weak by design of the Creator and Adam and Eve proved that by giving into those desires.
trustitl wrote:
Flesh is not evil, it is merely a tool. The NRA likes to say that guns do not kill people, people do. In the same way flesh does not sin. As DHK said "Give into your flesh and you give into sin." I wouldn't quite say it like that but I think I agree. I give into the flesh when I put a coat on because just last week it was -21 F here. I give into the flesh every night by going to bed after dealing with 6 of my own kids and 4 foster children. Neither of these are sin for me.
DHK reponded:
No, you are giving into your emotional state. That is not the same as your sinful nature which the Bible means when it uses the word "flesh".
DHK says that putting on a coat when it is cold is giving into emotions? Canada must be a pretty emotional place because I know it gets cold up there. Down here in the south (Michigan) we put ours on to stay warm not for emotional support.
Flesh is not evil, it is merely a tool. The NRA likes to say that guns do not kill people, people do. In the same way flesh does not sin. As DHK said "Give into your flesh and you give into sin." I wouldn't quite say it like that but I think I agree. I give into the flesh when I put a coat on because just last week it was -21 F here. I give into the flesh every night by going to bed after dealing with 6 of my own kids and 4 foster children. Neither of these are sin for me.
DHK reponded:
No, you are giving into your emotional state. That is not the same as your sinful nature which the Bible means when it uses the word "flesh".
DHK says that putting on a coat when it is cold is giving into emotions? Canada must be a pretty emotional place because I know it gets cold up there. Down here in the south (Michigan) we put ours on to stay warm not for emotional support.
I used the word emotions when I should have used the word "senses." Our body has nerves and nerve endings. When you touch a hot stove those nerve endings quickly send a message to the brain telling you that it is hot and you immediately retrieve your hand from the stove.trustitl said:
However those same senses are involved in one's mental state in the morning. If it is cold, like it is right now here (minus 40 in the morning), my senses tell me that the warm bed is much more comfortable than the cold floor, which affects my emotions "to feel like" staying in bed rather than getting out of bed.
Sorry, I didn't explain myself very well first time around.
Keeping the physical body in mind, take a look at Scripture:DHK said:
Romans 8:22-23 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
--We wait for the redemption of our bodies. It won't happen until the resurrection takes place and we receive a glorified body.
But the whole passage says that the entire creation of God groans and travails in pain right now. Birds and even trees don't have sin natures, but they are under the curse, that curse that was put in effect when Adam sinned. It will be lifted when Christ comes again at the end of the Tribulation Period. All things at this present time tend to a state of decay. They break down, degenerate. It is a direct result of the Fall.
The curse on man goes farther than that. His nature was affected. He inherited a sin nature. Not only his outer temple, the body, like the rest of creation was affected; but his inner nature was affected. We can speak about the body--nerves, senses, the physical aspect of the body. But God made us in his likeness and his image. God is spirit. His image and likeness have nothing to do with this physical body. It has to do with our nature. When Adam sinned that image and likeness was marred. It will never become completely restored until we see Jesus. Right now that marred likeness is called a sinful nature. It has been marred by sin. We have inherited a nature contaminated by sin.
You can call them senses if you want, but it is all a part of our flesh. MaybeDHK said:
you are trying to get me to say Canadians are more sensible but I won't
go there. :love2:
You have given a perfect example of where we use our will to choose between living after the flesh or after the spirit. The Spirit would not have us choose to stay in bed when we have responsibilities that need to be tended to while the flesh (in this case the nerve endings on the bottom of ones feet) is not concerned with such things.
A believer being threatened with burning at the stake for his faith is in an extreme test of living after the flesh or after the spirit. The flesh would be screaming to the will to recant with every ounce of energy it could muster. This is not a sinful nature trying to be in charge, but rather merely a natural instinct to not get burned and simply survive.
Jesus faced this test in the days leading up to his death. He submitted to the Spirit and chose accordingly. Not my will but thine be done was his choice.
Marcia
Active Member
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
Fallen means they carry the consequence of Adam's sin; therefore, we can get sick, we age, and we die a physical death.
The body itself is not accountable because it is not a person but part of a person. We, the person, are accountable.
1 Cor. 15 and other passages tell us how our body will be changed/transformed into a better incoruptible body. That means our body is corruptible. This started in Gen. 3.
Marcia
Active Member
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
You may want to know why Adam and Eve sinned and why Satan sinned, but God doesn't tell us. So how am I supposed to know?
God does not give us all the answers and explanations to these matters, probably because we are not able to handle it or would misuse the knowledge.
Marcia
Active Member
trustitl said:
I am not wondering about how it's used in the Bible. By "here," I meant on this thread and in some of the posts. People are not clarifying what they mean by "flesh."
Speculations on Paul's thorn are just that - speculations. They don't have a bearing on this discussion as far as I'm concerned.
Of course something happened to their flesh. They aged and died - eventually. It was not right away but they did die. Romans 5 tells us that it was sin that causes death. Death in the Bible means a separation - the body from the immaterial part of the person at physical death and spiritual death is separation from God.
No, not originally. Originally, Adam and Eve would not have died.
Yes, we have corruptible bodies because of sin which brought age and death. Sin also brought decay and death to nature and the earth, which is why the whole of earth groans, waiting for its redemption (Rom. 8).
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Well, God does tell us to a degree some of Eves reasons for sinning, although I agree the question still remains, but why did she chose to follow those sinful suggestions?
HP: Excellent point. Neither does scripture tell us that we sin because we have a sinful nature that necessitates us to sin. Neither does it tell us that we are sinners because of Adam’s sin. It simply states that we are all sinners, ‘because all have sinned.’ I say that we cannot go beyond Scripture as to why we sin, just as you point out with Adam, Eve, and Satan.
There is a mystery to any and every intent by moral sentient beings. To think we have a viable answer as to why we sin, by the pat answer of original sin or inherited moral depravity, is an answer outside of Scripture and only satisfies the mind that makes such comments or accepts that dogma as truth. If we are going to stay well within the bounds of Scripture, we can only agree with what is written, "for all have sinned."
Define "man."trustitl said:
1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
We are tripartite beings. The body will die, separate itself from the spirit, and the spirit will live on forever. The body is simply a house for the spirit.
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
2 Corinthians 5:1-3 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
--Paul calls this body an earthly house, a tabernacle. It will be dissolved someday and be replaced with another house; a house not made with hands, and it will be eternal.
The spirit lives eternally.
Right now, we have a soul, contaminated with the sin of the world. It is the heart of man. It is our depraved and sinful nature. Jesus says that every kind of evil comes from it.
Mark 7:21-23 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
Marcia
Active Member
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
True, it does give some reasons for Eve's succumbing to tempation (the fruit looked good and she desired the wisdom she thought she would get). The picture we are given is that she succumbed to the serpent's lies, so one can conclude she chose to believe the serpent over what God had said (God had given this order to Adam before Eve was created, so she heard it from Adam, which is one reason Adam is given the responsibility).
I'm not going beyond scripture.
12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
1 Cor 15
21For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
If man is not born with a sin nature, then you are saying that one is born without a need for redemption or a Savior.
I thought I made it very clear what I think flesh is. It does not require a deep theological or scientific answer. God's word was written for average Joes like me. Here again are my words from an earlier post:Marcia said:
When I ask my children what flesh is they think of meat, skin, muscles. When John said the Word became flesh he used that word because it was the best word, the clearest word, to show that Jesus had skin, muscles, tissue... That he was a man.
I think that is very clear. Maybe not very deep, but pretty straightforward.
I didn't speculate on Paul's thorn. I was only using this issue as an example of what happens when we start using the word flesh however we want. Clearly we do not know what Paul's thorn was, but we do know it was in his flesh. I don't see how that has anything to do with a sinful nature.Marcia said:
Here is another example of making up terms. "Spiritual death" appears no where in scripture. Ask my kids what death means and the answer will be obvious and will not include anything about being separated from God. So when sin brought death, it would be what my 8 year old would say, not some theologian.Marcia said:
My question still remains. Why did Adam and Eve die? Was it because they sinned or because they were removed from the garden and access to the Tree of Life?Marcia said:
Is it not true that the decay and death were a result of the curse rather than a direct result of sin. Once again, Adam's flesh would have continued living after sinning. God said "Lest he eat of the Tree of Life and live forever" after he sinned.Marcia said:
With your forced "one word--one definition" concept of theology, do now consider yourself cannibalistic?trustitl said:
John 6:54-56 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
Marcia
Active Member
trustitl said:
We let the Bible define terms, not our children, assumptions, or modern understandings. The word "flesh" is clearly used in the Bible in different ways. In some cases, it means a human being. Sometimes it means the actual body, other times it means the sinful nature. In the case of what you refer to above, it means Jesus incarnated in a human body, but the word "flesh" does not always mean this. Biblical hermeneutics demands looking at the immediate context, and then the context of the book and the writer. Therefore, one looks at how Paul uses this word if reading one of his epistles.
In this case, it doesn't. It means some kind of physical affliction and that's all we can say. But Paul does not use the word "flesh" in the same way all the time.
Getting theology from your children is not a good way to understand the Bible. We look at the Bible to see what death means. Death physically meant the body dying, and death in another way (see Rev. for the "second death") means separation from God's presence eternally.
It could be both. They were removed from access to the Tree of Life because they sinned and were therfore removed from the Garden.
Perhaps Adam could have kept living, but it would have been in a state of decay and age. Many people have theories on this as God does not directly tell us. What we do know, is that death came as the result of sin.
From Gen. 3
19By the sweat of your face
You will eat bread,
Till you (U)return to the ground,
Because (V)from it you were taken;
For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return."
From Rom. 5
12Therefore, just as through (A)one man sin entered into the world, and (B)death through sin, and (C)so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned (AH)through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will (AI)reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.