Hope of Glory
New Member
That was the equivalent of the state at that time.
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What constitutes "marriage"?
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Brother Bob
New Member
Frenchy;
As far as Matt 18 that applies to someone who is in sin but not in the church. If they have their name on the book of the church and commit such an act then we feel they really are not in the church and need to stop and get forgivness from God and then come to the Church.
In a case of adultry we believe they went out from among us because they were not of us.
As far as Matt 18 that applies to someone who is in sin but not in the church. If they have their name on the book of the church and commit such an act then we feel they really are not in the church and need to stop and get forgivness from God and then come to the Church.
In a case of adultry we believe they went out from among us because they were not of us.
Brother Bob
New Member
Frenchy;
We would have to apply the following:
1 Corinthians, chapter 5
11: But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator , or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12: For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13: But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
We would have to apply the following:
1 Corinthians, chapter 5
11: But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator , or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12: For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13: But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
Your missing the point Brother Bob these verses were given for RESTORATION of the bretheren, not for condemnation!
If anyone in the church knows of a known sin of a brother or sister they are to apply Matt 18 if that person will not REPENT then it is brought before the church and if they still do not repent they are to be kicked out all for the SAKE OF RESTORATION! for their soul and for the witness of God.
If anyone in the church knows of a known sin of a brother or sister they are to apply Matt 18 if that person will not REPENT then it is brought before the church and if they still do not repent they are to be kicked out all for the SAKE OF RESTORATION! for their soul and for the witness of God.
According to Matt 18:15-17, if we observe a person who claims to be a brother, yet whose behavior is immoral and sinful, we should privately and gently confront this person with the truth of their sin, and seek to restore them to Christ through repentance. Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted”l 6:1). If they refuse to hear us in the matter, we should make another attempt with the assistance of one or two more Christians. Still, if there is no satisfactory response, we should then tell it to the church. And finally, if the restorative attempts of the church and it’s authorities are further rejected, we are no longer to esteem them as a brother (Matt 18:15-17).
When such repetitive efforts to restore a fallen brother are met by the absence of genuine repentance (turning away from sin), the church is left with a sad and unpleasant task — to excommunicate the individual, as described in 1 Corinthians chapter 5. In this particular case, a man in the church of Corinth was persisting in a matter of sexual immorality (with his father’s wife), and Paul told the leaders that such continued sin by a professing believer was not to be tolerated within the church. He told them, “In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus” (1 Cor. 5:4-5).
To implement this action, it appears that the church publicly dismissed the man from the church fellowship, as Paul said to “...put away from yourselves that wicked person” (1 Cor. 5:13). It appears that expulsion was intended to remove this individual from the protective environment of the church, exposing him to the harsh reality of the Holy Spirit’s absence — thus turning him over to Satan’s world of darkness and torments. Some suggest that “destruction of the flesh” may mean a visitation of a physical affliction or even death.
The Purpose of Excommunication
Nevertheless, the purpose of turning a person over to Satan is not merely punitive, but for the same familiar objectives:
(1) Restoration - God’s desire is, and always will be, to reconcile the sinner back to Himself. “...that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus...” (1 Cor 5:5). The hope is that when abandoned to the wages of sin, the inevitable loss of peace, and subjected to Satan’s torments, the rebellious soul will eventually seek repentance and restoration.
(2) Protection - The unrepentant is removed from the church to protect the body from further infection by such sinful behavior. “...Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?” (1 Cor 5:6). Paul reminds us that it is one thing to be among immoral people in the world, but it is not acceptable to fellowship with immoral people who profess to be Christians. “But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; not even to eat with such a person” (1 Cor. 5:11). Persons in the church fellowship who resist correction and repentance in this type of immoral behavior, should be expelled. Furthermore, their dismissal is not a secret, but is made public so that Christians will no longer keep their company......
http://www.victorious.org/excomun.htm
When such repetitive efforts to restore a fallen brother are met by the absence of genuine repentance (turning away from sin), the church is left with a sad and unpleasant task — to excommunicate the individual, as described in 1 Corinthians chapter 5. In this particular case, a man in the church of Corinth was persisting in a matter of sexual immorality (with his father’s wife), and Paul told the leaders that such continued sin by a professing believer was not to be tolerated within the church. He told them, “In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus” (1 Cor. 5:4-5).
To implement this action, it appears that the church publicly dismissed the man from the church fellowship, as Paul said to “...put away from yourselves that wicked person” (1 Cor. 5:13). It appears that expulsion was intended to remove this individual from the protective environment of the church, exposing him to the harsh reality of the Holy Spirit’s absence — thus turning him over to Satan’s world of darkness and torments. Some suggest that “destruction of the flesh” may mean a visitation of a physical affliction or even death.
The Purpose of Excommunication
Nevertheless, the purpose of turning a person over to Satan is not merely punitive, but for the same familiar objectives:
(1) Restoration - God’s desire is, and always will be, to reconcile the sinner back to Himself. “...that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus...” (1 Cor 5:5). The hope is that when abandoned to the wages of sin, the inevitable loss of peace, and subjected to Satan’s torments, the rebellious soul will eventually seek repentance and restoration.
(2) Protection - The unrepentant is removed from the church to protect the body from further infection by such sinful behavior. “...Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?” (1 Cor 5:6). Paul reminds us that it is one thing to be among immoral people in the world, but it is not acceptable to fellowship with immoral people who profess to be Christians. “But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; not even to eat with such a person” (1 Cor. 5:11). Persons in the church fellowship who resist correction and repentance in this type of immoral behavior, should be expelled. Furthermore, their dismissal is not a secret, but is made public so that Christians will no longer keep their company......
http://www.victorious.org/excomun.htm
Brother Bob
New Member
Church can't forgive adultry. God has to do that.
11: But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator;
Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
No restoration in these Scriptures. You are talking about if a brother offend you.
11: But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator;
Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
No restoration in these Scriptures. You are talking about if a brother offend you.
Donna and Hope of Glory, you are both stating that the civil law and the religious laws then were the same thing.
However, it was also stated that Jesus broke no civil law, and that the civil and religious laws were different for Him.
This is a conflict.
How are you viewing civil and religious law separately in one instance, yet as the same in another?
However, it was also stated that Jesus broke no civil law, and that the civil and religious laws were different for Him.
This is a conflict.
How are you viewing civil and religious law separately in one instance, yet as the same in another?
Hope of Glory
New Member
Umm... If I'm not mistaken, we were looking at Moses and the writing of a bill of divorce, which took place quite a bit before the time that Jesus walked the Earth. When Jesus walked the Earth, Israel was under Roman civil authority, and as such, the laws were separated, just as they are today.
Brother Bob
New Member
Frenchy;
You say that I am wrong according to your post but your post is wrong. Where in this Scripture does it say Paul used Matt: 18
1 Corinthians, chapter 5
1: It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2: And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3: For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4: In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5: To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6: Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7: Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9: I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10: Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11: But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12: For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13: But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
Even the URL you gave says it is a fallen brother, but also says he was not a brother at all in the first place to which I agree to that part. Again, the church can't forgive adultry.I didn't think you believed in a fall?
You say that I am wrong according to your post but your post is wrong. Where in this Scripture does it say Paul used Matt: 18
1 Corinthians, chapter 5
1: It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2: And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3: For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4: In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5: To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6: Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7: Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9: I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10: Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11: But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12: For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13: But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
Even the URL you gave says it is a fallen brother, but also says he was not a brother at all in the first place to which I agree to that part. Again, the church can't forgive adultry.I didn't think you believed in a fall?
Magnetic Poles
New Member
So Brother Bob, you don't believe a true believer can succumb to the sin of adultery? Why not? We, though forgiven, are of weak flesh. Yes, God will forgive, but does he not forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us?
Brother Bob
New Member
No!!! I certainly do not believe a true believer can succumb to adultry. We are kept by the power of God. Is our God that weak?
saturneptune
New Member
King David thought so.
It shouldn't be, but it is. It isn't God that is weak, it is people. God never promises to keep us from all sin while we are on this earth. My weakness may not be yours, but your sin is no less sinful than mine.
People sin, Christian or otherwise. I do believe that Christians in general live purer lives than unbelievers, but they still sin, whether by dishonesty, abusing another person, or even being unfaithful.
I don't see the logic in saying that if we sin we are unsaved, that God keeps us from it.
Is a person unsaved because they overeat?
If they tell a lie?
If they cheated on a test, or on taxes?
If they hit someone else in anger?
If they think a sinful thought?
If they become addicted to a drug?
Brother Bob, I feel like I'm constantly disagreeing with you. Please do not take it as a sign that I wish to be argumentative or am disagreeing with you simply for the sake of disagreeing, as this is not the case.
Brother Bob
New Member
Before the Holy Ghost;
If you are going to try to live like King David I feel sorry for you
1 Corinthians, chapter 3
"16": Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
"17": If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
1 Corinthians, chapter 3
"17": If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
1 Corinthians, chapter 6
"19": What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
King David did not have the Holy Ghost within him. Where would the Holy Ghost go what time a member was committing adultry?
If you are going to try to live like King David I feel sorry for you
1 Corinthians, chapter 3
"16": Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
"17": If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
1 Corinthians, chapter 3
"17": If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
1 Corinthians, chapter 6
"19": What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
King David did not have the Holy Ghost within him. Where would the Holy Ghost go what time a member was committing adultry?
saturneptune
New Member
Brother Bob,
This is the first time I have not agreed with you. A saved Christian can commit adultry, just like any other sin. Where does the Holy Ghost go for any sin a Christian commits? I thought we grew out of putting sins on pedestals long ago.
This is the first time I have not agreed with you. A saved Christian can commit adultry, just like any other sin. Where does the Holy Ghost go for any sin a Christian commits? I thought we grew out of putting sins on pedestals long ago.
1 Cor 5" 12-13 say these are people in the church not outside for do we have concern with those outside the church? we don't!
1 Cor 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
1 Cor 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
Brother Bob
New Member
I believe that God is stronger than the Devil
Jude, chapter 1
"24": Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
"25": To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
Frenchy;
Paul was telling them that person was not a part of them and to not eat with him that he was of them without.
John, chapter 17
"12": While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
I am sorry but I do not believe in a fall from Grace and to commit adultry if you were a child of God would be a fall.
Jude, chapter 1
"24": Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
"25": To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
Frenchy;
Paul was telling them that person was not a part of them and to not eat with him that he was of them without.
John, chapter 17
"12": While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
I am sorry but I do not believe in a fall from Grace and to commit adultry if you were a child of God would be a fall.