What day is the Lord's Day according to Scripture?

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

When we think the Moral Law is still effective, we realize more clearly that we cannot obey God up to His standards, and therefore we give up our ways and our will, then more completely commit ourselves to the Holy Spirit.[/COLOR][/FONT]
So, we are not mindful to keep the Law one by one, but are more dedicated to the Holy Spirit and rely on Him more faithfully. Then Holy Spirit guides us.

The danger herein exists that we mistake OUR 'spirit' for the Holy Spirit of God.

What proof has anyone to know for sure it is not God's Spirit but his own spirit that he relies on and that leads him?

Psalm 119 will tell.

Jesus Christ said true worshippers would do his Father's will. Why would Jesus say his Father's will and not the will of his Holy Spirit? Because Jesus KNEW that man is PRONE to "think more of himself than he should" and loves to elevate his own 'spirit' to the status of God's Spirit.

The ‘spirit’ such men rather than God’s Law obey, is the spirit of those who by "vain deceit" are "beguiled of (their) reward" Jesus Christ; and are "spoiled" in their “own fleshly mind” by a conceited spirit of “voluntary humility”— 99 out of 100 times just to get rid of the Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD GOD.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

what applies to us saved by grace, and now under the new covenant, is that we walk in the Holy spirit, abding in chrsit, and that by keeping Him and his relationship fresh daily, that the HS Himself shall enable us top live as we should!

We obey God from love and thanksgiving, and we will obey him as much as we yield and submit to the HS control over our lives!

Are you unfer the burden of the Law and keeping it, or the grcae and freedom from Chrsit and in the holy spirit?

This is self-delusion; nay, self deceit!


It is the man who keeps the Law that is not under 'the burden of the law' but serves and worships Christ in spirit and truth of God's Holy Laws as collected and contained and MAINTAINED in the person of Jesus Christ --- NOT 'in the holy spirit' even if it were God's Holy Spirit when IN MAN.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

............ such Law as Thou shalt not murder, thou shalt not commit adultery are still effective..................

That's OK because Eliyahu has said; but when the Letter to the Hebrews has said such Law as "keeping of the Sabbath Day is still effective for the People of God", it's no good, legalism and hatred.

…and—I forgot to mention—it’s hypocrisy.

 

[Yeshua1]

This is self-delusion; nay, self deceit!


It is the man who keeps the Law that is not under 'the burden of the law' but serves and worships Christ in spirit and truth of God's Holy Laws as collected and contained and MAINTAINED in the person of Jesus Christ --- NOT 'in the holy spirit' even if it were God's Holy Spirit when IN MAN.

we obey the Will of God expressed in the moral code of the law, but do not walk in legaility to that, but rather in the power and freedom of the Holy spirit!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

To me, every day of the week is the Sabbath throughout my life and I believe Romans 14:1-5 applies to this issue, but historicallyand biblically, I believe Sabbath Worship is more biblical since God never changed the Sabbath Commandment explicitly.

What to me is the Sabbath throughout my life or what I believe Romans 14:1-5 applies to in this issue or not, is of no concern.
All that is of concern or what applies is what Jesus DID to and 'capitalized on' with regard to the Body of Christ's Own in this 'matter' of the Sabbath "being valid still for God's People" or not.

Summed up Jesus did three things in this regard, first with reference to the whole of the Old Testament; next what Jesus taught and did Himself through deed, example and metaphor or type and symbol; simply, what Jesus taught and did Himself through words and deeds according to the Gospels.

Third, What Jesus taught and exemplified through Resurrection from the dead and the creation of the New Testament Church.

And with ALL THREE these things Christ exalted and magnified the Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD GOD, yea “made the Sabbath” what it is for God’s New Testament People: The Lord’s Day!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

we obey the Will of God expressed in the moral code of the law, but do not walk in legaility to that, but rather in the power and freedom of the Holy spirit!

Good!

Now do you define the negative of this,
1) that we obey the Will of God expressed in the moral code of the law EXCEPT THE FOURTH COMMANDMENT AND THE WORDS "THE SEVENTH DAY" which do not express the moral code of the law, and
2) that we do not walk in legality to the Law—DEFINED BY THE FOURTH COMMANDMENT AND THE WORDS "THE SEVENTH DAY”—, but
3) that we rather walk in the power and freedom of the Holy Spirit MEANING WE OBSERVE SUNDAY FOR THE SABBATH?

 

[Yeshua1]

Good!

Now do you define the negative of this,
1) that we obey the Will of God expressed in the moral code of the law EXCEPT THE FOURTH COMMANDMENT AND THE WORDS "THE SEVENTH DAY" which do not express the moral code of the law, and
2) that we do not walk in legality to the Law—DEFINED BY THE FOURTH COMMANDMENT AND THE WORDS "THE SEVENTH DAY”—, but
3) that we rather walk in the power and freedom of the Holy Spirit MEANING WE OBSERVE SUNDAY FOR THE SABBATH?

We observe sunday as being the first day of the week, when jesus rose and ushered in the new covenant age that we live under now!

A Christian can observe his sabbath as saturday if he chooses, but NOT manditory by God, notr required in order to be either saved or kept saved!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

We observe sunday as being the first day of the week, when jesus rose and ushered in the new covenant age that we live under now!

A Christian can observe his sabbath as saturday if he chooses, but NOT manditory by God, notr required in order to be either saved or kept saved!

As concerns the first hymn : SCRIPTURES?
Answer: ZERO!
Sympathy? ZERO!

As concerns the last halleluiah :
A Christian who observes his sabbath has no Sabbath.

Saturday is already picked by the Saturdalians for their debauchery.

So, neither is “manditory by God, notr required in order to be either saved or kept saved!”.
So it’s a non-issue that needs no answer in a ‘proper attitude’.
In other words, it’s an oxy-moron not worth the least consideration.

 

[Yeshua1]

As concerns the first hymn : SCRIPTURES?
Answer: ZERO!
Sympathy? ZERO!

As concerns the last halleluiah :
A Christian who observes his sabbath has no Sabbath.

Saturday is already picked by the Saturdalians for their debauchery.

So, neither is “manditory by God, notr required in order to be either saved or kept saved!”.
So it’s a non-issue that needs no answer in a ‘proper attitude’.
In other words, it’s an oxy-moron not worth the least consideration.

the sabbath was for israel, as their day of rest, and was never given to the church by neither jesus or his Apsotles, for they chose the day to worship to honor the resurrection on sunday!

 

[BobRyan]

We observe sunday as being the first day of the week, when jesus rose and ushered in the new covenant age that we live under now!

A Christian can observe his sabbath as saturday if he chooses, but NOT manditory by God, notr required in order to be either saved or kept saved!

According to the Bible, and D.L Moody and R.C Sproul, and C.H. Spurgeon and Andy Stanley and all who accept God's Ten Commandments - the 4th Commandment - the Sabbath Commandment is "God's Sabbath" - as God says in Isaiah 58.

We are not allowed to make stuff up - especially when it comes to God's commandments - so we can not make up one of our own.

I think even you will agree with me on this.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
All very good points.

As as for the 10 Commandments still applying to Christians today - even R.C Sproul, D.L. Moody, Andy Stanley, Charles Stanley and many others see that Bible point clearly.

We cannot simply toss them all under a bus.:type:

what applies to us saved by grace, and now under the new covenant

Jeremiah 31:31-33 says the Law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers is "written on the mind and the heart" under the new covenant and so this is exactly as Paul quotes the New Covenant from Jeremiah in Hebrews 8.

No wonder then that R.C Sproul, D.L. Moody, Andy Stanley, Charles Stanley and many others see that Bible point clearly in applying the Ten Commandments to Christians today just as Paul does in Ephesians 6:2 and just as James does in James 2.

, is that we walk in the Holy spirit, abding in chrsit,

As in all ages - for as Paul points out in 1Cor 10 "they all drank from the same Spiritual Rock and that Rock (PETRA) was Christ"

I highly recommend that you read 1John 5:2-3 and Rev 14:12.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

the sabbath was for israel, as their day of rest, and was never given to the church by neither jesus or his Apsotles, for they chose the day to worship to honor the resurrection on sunday!

God "made" the first ever Sabbath and Seventh Day at his creation of the world, "for man", Adam and Eve, for the purpose of their salvation, because "Adam abode not one night” and “entered not into God’s rest because of unbelief”, but before the “evening cool” [Genesis 3:8] of the Seventh Day’s start, had sinned and was fallen and lost already.

God “gave” the first ever ‘resurrected’ Sabbath Day as it were from the dead at the Passover and exodus of Israel, for the purpose of their salvation both literally and typically with the view to Jesus Christ’s own triumph through resurrection out of the realm of the dead.

God several times again re-resurrected the Sabbath Day as it were from the dead, and throughout the history of the People of Israel re-instituted it with ever clearer view on Christ and the great deeds of God “us-toward who believe” through Him.

Wherever and whenever the Sabbath is made the topic or focal point of interest in Holy Writ, it had and still has to do with Christ the Author and Finisher of the Faith and Desire of the Ages.

Then, “in these last days … God … thus concerning the day The Seventh Day” and all prophecies and promises “in ALL the Scriptures concerning the Christ” with regard to it, “… by the Son … SPAKE : And God the day The Seventh Day from all his works RESTED.” --- not one word from God of or about “Sunday” as being the day of Jesus’ Resurrection from the dead!

“The Sabbath was made for [THIS] Man … the Son of Man that layeth hold on the Sabbath—[“Lord of the Sabbath”] that keepeth the Sabbath any evil being done against it.”

The ox lifted out of the pit on the Sabbath and the life of the donkey that was on the Sabbath saved from dying of thirst, and the healings and resurrection that Jesus did on the Sabbath Day—all, speak of the Christ that would rise from the dead “ON THE SABBATH IN FULLNESS OF DAY, IN THE MID-AFTERNOON TOWARDS the First Day of the week.”

There is nothing in all of Scripture that Jesus would, or did, rise from the dead “on sunday!” and there is no indication or occasion that Jesus’ apostles would or did choose the ‘Sunday’, “to worship to honor the resurrection on sunday!” THAT, IS, NOT, WRITTEN, NOT TYPIFIED, NOT PROPHESIED, NOT PROMISED, NOT SUNG, ANYWHERE IN THE SCRIPTURES.

The Sabbath was not given “for Israel”, but for their redemption; not “as their, day of rest”, but as GOD’S, DAY OF REST THROUGH THEIR REDEMPTION.

The Sabbath indeed was “given to the church” just as “Christ, was given to the Church as HEAD”—for to worship God.
Therefore Christ “honoured the Sabbath” as Isaiah PROPHESIED that He would in Isaiah 58.
And Christ’s Apostles used the Sabbath in honour of Christ’s Resurrection “ON” it, and PROVED its ENJOYMENT AND PEACE with “SABBATHS’-FEAST-OF-CHRIST THE SUBSTANCE”. Colossians 2:12-19.

 

[saturneptune]

Calvinists think it is Tuesday because that is Election Day.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Calvinists think it is Tuesday because that is Election Day.

:laugh: :laugh:

 

[Yeshua1]

God "made" the first ever Sabbath and Seventh Day at his creation of the world, "for man", Adam and Eve, for the purpose of their salvation, because "Adam abode not one night” and “entered not into God’s rest because of unbelief”, but before the “evening cool” [Genesis 3:8] of the Seventh Day’s start, had sinned and was fallen and lost already.

God “gave” the first ever ‘resurrected’ Sabbath Day as it were from the dead at the Passover and exodus of Israel, for the purpose of their salvation both literally and typically with the view to Jesus Christ’s own triumph through resurrection out of the realm of the dead.

God several times again re-resurrected the Sabbath Day as it were from the dead, and throughout the history of the People of Israel re-instituted it with ever clearer view on Christ and the great deeds of God “us-toward who believe” through Him.

Wherever and whenever the Sabbath is made the topic or focal point of interest in Holy Writ, it had and still has to do with Christ the Author and Finisher of the Faith and Desire of the Ages.

Then, “in these last days … God … thus concerning the day The Seventh Day” and all prophecies and promises “in ALL the Scriptures concerning the Christ” with regard to it, “… by the Son … SPAKE : And God the day The Seventh Day from all his works RESTED.” --- not one word from God of or about “Sunday” as being the day of Jesus’ Resurrection from the dead!

“The Sabbath was made for [THIS] Man … the Son of Man that layeth hold on the Sabbath—[“Lord of the Sabbath”] that keepeth the Sabbath any evil being done against it.”

The ox lifted out of the pit on the Sabbath and the life of the donkey that was on the Sabbath saved from dying of thirst, and the healings and resurrection that Jesus did on the Sabbath Day—all, speak of the Christ that would rise from the dead “ON THE SABBATH IN FULLNESS OF DAY, IN THE MID-AFTERNOON TOWARDS the First Day of the week.”

There is nothing in all of Scripture that Jesus would, or did, rise from the dead “on sunday!” and there is no indication or occasion that Jesus’ apostles would or did choose the ‘Sunday’, “to worship to honor the resurrection on sunday!” THAT, IS, NOT, WRITTEN, NOT TYPIFIED, NOT PROPHESIED, NOT PROMISED, NOT SUNG, ANYWHERE IN THE SCRIPTURES.

The Sabbath was not given “for Israel”, but for their redemption; not “as their, day of rest”, but as GOD’S, DAY OF REST THROUGH THEIR REDEMPTION.

The Sabbath indeed was “given to the church” just as “Christ, was given to the Church as HEAD”—for to worship God.
Therefore Christ “honoured the Sabbath” as Isaiah PROPHESIED that He would in Isaiah 58.
And Christ’s Apostles used the Sabbath in honour of Christ’s Resurrection “ON” it, and PROVED its ENJOYMENT AND PEACE with “SABBATHS’-FEAST-OF-CHRIST THE SUBSTANCE”. Colossians 2:12-19.

why make a big deal over something that God does not?

 

[Eliyahu]

The danger herein exists that we mistake OUR 'spirit' for the Holy Spirit of God.

What proof has anyone to know for sure it is not God's Spirit but his own spirit that he relies on and that leads him?

Psalm 119 will tell.

Jesus Christ said true worshippers would do his Father's will. Why would Jesus say his Father's will and not the will of his Holy Spirit? Because Jesus KNEW that man is PRONE to "think more of himself than he should" and loves to elevate his own 'spirit' to the status of God's Spirit.

The ‘spirit’ such men rather than God’s Law obey, is the spirit of those who by "vain deceit" are "beguiled of (their) reward" Jesus Christ; and are "spoiled" in their “own fleshly mind” by a conceited spirit of “voluntary humility”— 99 out of 100 times just to get rid of the Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD GOD.

You can hardly imagine what stage I am talking about.

Psalm 119 is entirely for the Law.

 

[Eliyahu]

Last time I posted the articles about the famous Christians comment on the Law ( Torah).


The following is the additional Info which couldn't be posted because the volume exceeded 1 MB last time.

WHAT THE GREAT MEN OF PROTESTANTISM SAY​

ABOUT THE LAW OF GOD​

Briefly I want to quote from great Protestant churches and great Protestant leaders concerning their position or regard for the Ten Commandments.
Martin Luther
From the book Explanation of Martin Luther's Small Catechism, released by the book committee of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, I read:
"How many kinds of laws did God give in the Old Testament? Three kinds:
I. The ceremonial church law;
2. The civil law;
3. The moral law. Which of these laws is still in force? The moral law, which is contained in the Ten Commandments. Cannot this law be abolished? No; because it is founded on God's holy and righteous nature."
Martin Luther engaged in several disputations with people who misused his writings to say the ten commandment law was done away with. These disputations have been printed by the Luthern Press in books entitled: "Don't Tell Me That" and "Only the Decalogue is Eternal". Following is a brief quote from chapter One of "Don't Tell Me That":
Repentance is the sadness we experience after committing a specific sin as well as the resolution we then make not to sin in such a way again. Such sadness is the feeling or awareness in our heart or conscience that we have disobeyed the Law of God (the 10 Commandments: Exodus 20; Deuteronomy 6). Many people hear the Law, but because they do not feel the effect or power of the Law in their hearts, experience no sadness, and so are not truly repentant....
In reality, regret is the sorrow or torment experienced by the conscience (whether it wants to or not!) when properly addressed or confronted by the Law.
In the past it was also taught that sin was simply an improper action against man-made institutions. Seldom were sins addressed that were committed against the moral law (the 10 Commandments).
Then we turn to chapter two of the same book and read:
Nowadays there is a novel idea afoot! According to the promoters of this idea, the Law (that is, the 10 Commandments) should be completely removed from the Church. This is nothing else but deplorable and irreverent.
The entire Bible teaches that it is the Law which must initiate repentance.....Sin and death are not exposed by a Word of grace and comfort, but only by the Law.
The Spirit first rebukes the world because of sin ( John 16:8) so that He can then teach faith in Christ, that is, the forgiveness of sins. Paul in Romans held to this way of teaching when he first taught that all people are sinners and then afterwards, that they must become righteous only through Jesus Christ (Romans 3:23, 28).

John Calvin
John Calvin wrote Institutes of Christian Religion
Book 2, Chapter 7
6. That the whole matter may be made clearer, let us take a succinct view of the office and use of the Moral Law. Now this office and use seems to me to consist of three parts.
7. Thus the Law is a kind of mirror. As in a mirror we discover any stains upon our face, so in the Law we behold, first, our impotence; then, in consequence of it, our iniquity; and, finally, the curse, as the consequence of both. He who has no power of following righteousness is necessarily plunged in the mire of iniquity, and this iniquity is immediately followed by the curse. Accordingly, the greater the transgression of which the Law convicts us, the severer the judgment to which we are exposed. To this effect is the Apostle’s declaration, that “by the law is the knowledge of sin,” (Rom. 3:20). By these words, he only points out the first office of the Law as experienced by sinners not yet regenerated.... that divesting themselves of an absurd opinion of their own virtue, they may perceive how they are wholly dependent on the hand of God; that feeling how naked and destitute they are, they may take refuge in his mercy, rely upon it, and cover themselves up entirely with it; renouncing all righteousness and merit, and clinging to mercy alone, as offered in Christ to all who long and look for it in true faith.
10. The second office of the Law is, by means of its fearful denunciations and the consequent dread of punishment, to curb those who, unless forced, have no regard for rectitude and justice.
12. The third use of the Law (being also the principal use, and more closely connected with its proper end) has respect to believers in whose hearts the Spirit of God already flourishes and reigns. For although the Law is written and engraven on their hearts by the finger of God, that is, although they are so influenced and actuated by the Spirit, that they desire to obey God, there are two ways in which they still profit in the Law. For it is the best instrument for enabling them daily to learn with greater truth and certainty what that will of the Lord is which they aspire to follow, and to confirm* them in this knowledge; just as a servant who desires with all his soul to approve himself to his master, must still observe, and be careful to ascertain his master’s dispositions, that he may comport himself in accommodation to them. Let none of us deem ourselves exempt from this necessity, for none have as yet attained to such a degree of wisdom, as that they may not, by the daily instruction of the Law, advance to a purer knowledge of the Divine will.
13. Some unskilful persons, from not attending to this, boldly discard the whole law of Moses, and do away with both its Tables, imagining it unchristian to adhere to a doctrine which contains the ministration of death. Far from our thoughts be this profane notion.
14. let us distinguish accurately between what has been abrogated in the Law, and what still remains in force. When the Lord declares, that he came not to destroy the Law, but to fulfil (Mt. 5:17); that until heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or little shall remain unfulfilled; he shows that his advent was not to derogate, in any degree, from the observance of the Law. And justly, since the very end of his coming was to remedy the transgression of the Law. Therefore, the doctrine of the Law has not been infringed by Christ, but remains, that, by teaching, admonishing, rebuking, and correcting, it may fit and prepare us for every good work.
From ONE HUNDRED APHORISMS, book two: #22. Christ is exhibited to men by the Law and by the Gospel.
#23. The Law is threefold:
Ceremonial,
Judicial,
Moral.


The use of the Ceremonial Law is repealed, its effect is perpetual.
The Judicial or Political Law was peculiar to the Jews, and has been set aside,
while that universal justice which is described in the Moral Law remains. The latter, or Moral Law, the object of which is to cherish and maintain godliness and righteousness, is perpetual, and is incumbent on all.

24. The use of the Moral Law is threefold.
The first use shows our weakness, unrighteousness, and condemnation; not that we may despair, but that we may flee to Christ. The second is, that those who are not moved by promises, may be urged by the terror of threatenings. The third is, that we may know what is the will of God;
"We must not imagine that the coming of Christ has freed us from the authority of the law: for it is the eternal rule of a devout and holy life, and must, therefore, be as unchangeable, as the justice of God, which it embraced, is constant and uniform."


http://dedication.www3.50megs.com/greatmen.html

 

[Eliyahu]

You can see from the above that the Christian leaders considered the Law as quite an important frame for the Christian Believers' Lives, as we have already read about John Wesley.

However, in our generation, many Believers misunderstand the Law is the Opposite to Gospel and Grace, and the Law has been abolished.

Nevertheless the Christian leaders classify the Law into 3 mostly.

Apparently the Sacrificial Law was achieved and is no longer effective since Jesus Crucifixion was a perfect sacrifice.
But the Moral Law is not to be ignored or violated.

 

[BobRyan]

why make a big deal over something that God does not?

The Sabbath commandment is one of the Ten Commandments.

It is embedded in God's last warning to mankind in Rev 14:6-7.

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


This is so clear that even D.L. Moody puts it this way --

The Fourth Commandment

Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.


THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)
It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the Sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness.
http://www.fbinstitute.com/moody/The_TenCommandments_Text.html

 

[saturneptune]

Shaking my head - What in the world are you talking about. Where did you ever get this idea from? NO reasonable person would come to the conclusion that this is what that means. That idea is so far out of left field no one can see where it came from.

I do not blame you for shaking your head. There is no need to comment on this ridiculous thread except to say, as of late, there has been an influx of SDA and charasmatic threads that make the RCC look like the saints they worship.

Not only do they argue points that do make one bit of difference towards salvation, they do it in a manner that draws them to the wrong conclusion everytime, whether it be the Sabbath or certain gifts of the Holy Spirit, to losing ones salvation.

Where do these people come from?