And "nice" means "stupid".
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What Difference Does It Make?
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SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Jon, I really cannot understand you at times!
It looks like you just like to come on BB to argue, even when you are wrong!
I have shown for ALL of the Greek evidence, LXX, NT, Apocrypha, and even the Hebrew, and there is NO doubt that μονογενής is NEVER translated as ONLY BEGOTTEN. And YET you will keep on arguing and have NOT even been able to disprove ANY of what I said in link #38!
I am saying that "nice" means "stupid". The word meaning has, of course e, changed but it's root remains "ignorant".
Ok....so several scholars insist rhe word as used in John 1:18 means "begotten". Josephus uses it ti
o mean "begotten".
I am not saying it definitely means begotten here, as begotten is already established (there is no effect on doctrine).
I am, however, saying that you have not proven your case. It is a matter of interpretation. The doctrine remains the same.
The difference here is that you add "son" to the text in order to pretend the modifier is not an empty modifier while the scholars who believe it has to mean "begotten" at a minimum view the word to mean "unique" in a generational sense.
I have read those scholars I have referenced. My only experience with you is the BB. If pressed, I'd go with those scholars because of their qualifications.
You may have the same education and experience as those scholars, but I do not know your academic history or reputation.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
My own writings testify to my level of knowledge of Hebrew Latin and Greek. I present my own research and am very open to being corrected or challenged on my conclusions. What I have written here is open to any criticism, providing it is constructive
I repost this and again ask for anyone to disprove or correct me
Monogenēs: Unique, Not Only-Begotten
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I have to agree with the thread title,
What Difference Does It Make
You are fighting over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
Do we know that Jesus is God, YES.
Do we know that He is the only Son, YES
What Difference Does It Make
You are fighting over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
Do we know that Jesus is God, YES.
Do we know that He is the only Son, YES
37818
Well-Known Member
Do you understand how we disagree? Regarding, John 1:18? You think my understanding is not correct.
Yes, they do. But they do not testify to your expertise (as opposed to those scholars I mentioned).
You and I have studied Greek at a graduate level, but that doesn't make us experts - and on this issue....especially when we have the word being used secularly to mean "begotten".
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Why does the KJV translate μονογενης 6 times only begotten, 2 times only and once only child?
HOW can all these definitions be right?
Before the Latin Vulgate the Old Latin used UNICUS. Jerome changed it for theological reasons
I'd think from the context, but I'm not a KJVO guy so don't ask me.
A better question is why we dismiss the possibility the word could mean "begotten " when we know of secular 1st century works using the word to mean "begotten" when describing genealogy.
The best rationale, I think, is Bulman. The word cannot mean "unique" because it would be an empty modifier. One can add "son", but if "son" is implied in the actual text then the word has to mean "only begotten" by context. And the modifier is no longer an error - it is generational.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
μονογενης is a compound Greek word, which literally means
Of a single kind
One of a kind
Unique
"Nice," is an Old English word which means "stupid", from a Latin word meaning "ignorant".
The plain truth is that an empty modifier, as you suggest, simply does not work.
In 1st century Jewish secular text the word is used to mean "begotten" (in genelogy).
You should know about context and words rather than working through the Bible as a code book.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
μονογενης is a compound Greek word, which literally means
Of a single kind
One of a kind
Unique
reference?
Last edited:
Josephus.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Josephus does use the Greek μονογενης, in reference to Genesis 22. However, it does not mean "only begotten", as translated by Loeb Classical Libary
"Now Isaac was passionately beloved of his father Abraham, being his only son and born to him 'on the threshold of old age " " through the bounty of God" (Book 1, chap, 13.1. 222)
The use by Josephus is also referred to by:
The Greek lexicon by BDAG, says, "to being the only one of its kind within a specific relationship, one and only, only"
The Unitarian, J H Thayer in his Greek lexicon says of this quote in Josephus, "single of its kind, only"
In the EDNT dictionary, "Likewise, Josephus uses μονογενης in Ant. i.222 in the sense of unique; he expresses the idea "born" with a separate partc"
Do you suppose these Greek authorities are wrong?
The LXX has for the Hebrew, "yâchîyd" in Genesis 22:2, "αγαπητον", which is "beloved"
can you provide any Greek authorities who say that μονογενης is "only begotten". Preferably those who are not pro KJV
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Not in reference to Genesis. In reference to secular history (genelogy).
Josephus uses it as "begotten" (not unique, but in reference to a child with siblings).
The issue I have with your argument is not your use of the word. It is that you deny the word can be used as "begotten" when it has been (secularly) and so many scholars (experts in the language) insist it means "begotten" at the minimum.
It is intellectually dishonest, and an attempt to avoid conflict about your interpretation. Rather than arguing for your view you attempt to argue all of those e perts hold an impossible position.
An honest argument would be for your position. You do not do this except to erroneously argue the other interpretations are impossible.
If you knew about the language that woukd not be your argument.
Too many experts in the field have stated that the word can mean "begotten". Some argue against that interpretation, most for it, BUT none of them against the possibility of either.
That is how we can know, without a doubt, that you do not know what you are talking about. You have decided on an interpretation and put blunders on lest you have to develop a legitimate argument for that position.
This is a type of ignorance we see around here quite a bit.
The irony here, @SavedByGrace , is you present the same definition but by addition (and perhaps denying the verse identifies Jesus as God).
You add "son" which is either "begotten" or "adopted".
You add "son" which is either "begotten" or "adopted".
Some here have fallen into a word study fallacy. The only true way to find out the meaning of a word is to study the use of the word synchronically. I’ve mentioned previously that the word “nice”, if one does a word study as is often done on the BB, means “stupid”. The history of a word and it’s etymology do not determine a word’s meaning or use within a specific context.
With μονογενης there are two main interpretations – it means “unique”, “one of a kind”, or it means “only begotten”.
Part of the issue, and disagreement, involves its etymology. If this compound word (μονογ and ενης) is derived from monos (only) and genos (kind) then it means “unique”. If this word is derived from monos (only) and gennao (begat) then it means “only begotten”.
Unfortunately there is no consensus among scholars, and we cannot really know as a fact how the word originated.
Etymology
In support of the word meaning “only begotten”, the ending ενης commonly is used in compound words to indicate “begotten”. Some examples include αγεηνς (unnoble birth), δυσγενης (low born), ευγενης (well born), παλιγενης (born again), and πρωτογενης (first born).
So we know, without a doubt, that the ending ενης often means “begotten” (I am unaware of ενης being used to mean “kind” or “type”, but allow for that possibility.
Usage
The etymology of a word is only the first step in determining a word’s meaning. We also need to look at how the word is used, and the context in which this word is used.
Luke 7:12-13 - Now when he came nigh to the gate of the city, behold, there was a dead man carried out, the only (μονογενης) son of his mother, and she was a widow . . .
In this context, μονογενης means “only begotten” (the dead man was the only begotten son of his mother….not the unique son of his mother).
Luke 8:41-42 - And, behold, there came a man named Jairus, and he was a ruler of the synagogue: and he fell down at Jesus’ feet, and besought him that he would come into his house: for he had one only (μονογενης) daughter, about twelve years of age, and she lay a dying.
Again, here Jairus comes on behalf of his only begotten daughter (he only has one daughter, not a one of a kind daughter but he had begat only one daughter).
This is the same in John 1:14 - And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten (μονογενης) of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Here Jesus is the only begotten of the Father (not the only unique of the Father, or the only one of a kind of the Father).
Anhanasius uses the word to mean "begotten" in contrast to adopted (a narutal born child).
Josephus uses the word to mean "begotten" in his historical secular genelogy.
Hesiod, in Theogony, uses the word to mean "only begotten".
Aesop uses the word to mean "only begotten child".
Aeschylus uses the word to mean "only begotten".
Scholarship
Charles Irons (Fuller Theological Seminary) argues that the word means “only begotten”. He notes that Plato (Critias) uses the Greek word to mean “only begotten”.
Bulman insistes that the word means “only begotten” because of the context. The context is generation. If the word means “unique” or “one of a kind” then it is an empty modifier and one must add to Scripture (“son” is implied in “begotten” but not in “unique”). He also notes that ενης refers to “generation” in other Greek words.
Thayer argues that the word refers to a descendent or child (regardless of gender), and therefore the appropriate interpretation is “only begotten”.
Büchsel interpreted the word to mean "only begotten" in the context "of sole descendent".
Dahms observes that when used in reference to persons the word always points to generation (begotten).
Bottom Line
The bottom line is that we cannot dismiss “only begotten” simply because we do not like it. It is a legitimate interpretation of the word. People cannot disprove this fact. They cannot prove an opposing position.
They can argue for an opposing position. They should argue an opposing position. But anything more is dishonest.
With μονογενης there are two main interpretations – it means “unique”, “one of a kind”, or it means “only begotten”.
Part of the issue, and disagreement, involves its etymology. If this compound word (μονογ and ενης) is derived from monos (only) and genos (kind) then it means “unique”. If this word is derived from monos (only) and gennao (begat) then it means “only begotten”.
Unfortunately there is no consensus among scholars, and we cannot really know as a fact how the word originated.
Etymology
In support of the word meaning “only begotten”, the ending ενης commonly is used in compound words to indicate “begotten”. Some examples include αγεηνς (unnoble birth), δυσγενης (low born), ευγενης (well born), παλιγενης (born again), and πρωτογενης (first born).
So we know, without a doubt, that the ending ενης often means “begotten” (I am unaware of ενης being used to mean “kind” or “type”, but allow for that possibility.
Usage
The etymology of a word is only the first step in determining a word’s meaning. We also need to look at how the word is used, and the context in which this word is used.
Luke 7:12-13 - Now when he came nigh to the gate of the city, behold, there was a dead man carried out, the only (μονογενης) son of his mother, and she was a widow . . .
In this context, μονογενης means “only begotten” (the dead man was the only begotten son of his mother….not the unique son of his mother).
Luke 8:41-42 - And, behold, there came a man named Jairus, and he was a ruler of the synagogue: and he fell down at Jesus’ feet, and besought him that he would come into his house: for he had one only (μονογενης) daughter, about twelve years of age, and she lay a dying.
Again, here Jairus comes on behalf of his only begotten daughter (he only has one daughter, not a one of a kind daughter but he had begat only one daughter).
This is the same in John 1:14 - And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten (μονογενης) of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Here Jesus is the only begotten of the Father (not the only unique of the Father, or the only one of a kind of the Father).
Anhanasius uses the word to mean "begotten" in contrast to adopted (a narutal born child).
Josephus uses the word to mean "begotten" in his historical secular genelogy.
Hesiod, in Theogony, uses the word to mean "only begotten".
Aesop uses the word to mean "only begotten child".
Aeschylus uses the word to mean "only begotten".
Scholarship
Charles Irons (Fuller Theological Seminary) argues that the word means “only begotten”. He notes that Plato (Critias) uses the Greek word to mean “only begotten”.
Bulman insistes that the word means “only begotten” because of the context. The context is generation. If the word means “unique” or “one of a kind” then it is an empty modifier and one must add to Scripture (“son” is implied in “begotten” but not in “unique”). He also notes that ενης refers to “generation” in other Greek words.
Thayer argues that the word refers to a descendent or child (regardless of gender), and therefore the appropriate interpretation is “only begotten”.
Büchsel interpreted the word to mean "only begotten" in the context "of sole descendent".
Dahms observes that when used in reference to persons the word always points to generation (begotten).
Bottom Line
The bottom line is that we cannot dismiss “only begotten” simply because we do not like it. It is a legitimate interpretation of the word. People cannot disprove this fact. They cannot prove an opposing position.
They can argue for an opposing position. They should argue an opposing position. But anything more is dishonest.
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