What do BB Arminians Believe?

[Van]

Pitchback

So which of these are you saying...

1...Not all believe, but even those who do believe, God only chooses SOME of these to credit their faith as righteousness based solely on his choice, not something different between one person's faith vs. another?

Or...(2) Not all have faith, but among those who do have faith, only those who go "All in" for Jesus are chosen and have their faith credited as righteousness? (if so, how do define "all in" faith vs. "somewhat in" or "mostly in"?

or...(3) God chooses ALL those who have true faith (not just profess lip-service faith) and credits their faith as righteousness. (if this is the case, how is it different than what Skan is saying?

I explained my position. Do you agree with it? Why are you just asking a series of questions that you know misrepresent my view?

Not all believe. That is correct many reject the gospel or accept it halfway.

Next for the second time you misrepresent what I said. I said we are chosen on the basis of God crediting our faith, and for the second time you have rewritten it to say God chooses some to credit.

Number 2 is correct except again you have God choosing then crediting, rather than choosing on the basis of faith. God knows our hearts and he knows if we really believe from the heart or whether we still treasure worldly things. The differences revealed in the Bible are found in several places, including Matthew 13:1-26. Notice in Matthew 7 how those who have love in their hearts for the least of these, and not dead faith make the grade. We could go on and on about what the Bible teaches is going "all in" for Christ.

God does choose all those whose faith He credits as righteousness. Does God choosing depend on the man that wills to be saved? No. Romans 9:16. God has mercy upon those He has mercy.

Whoever believes in Him, as determined by God, shall not perish but have eternal life. This is what the Bible teaches clearly and repeatedly. For anyone to pretend this is somehow strange doctrine is ludicrous.

 

[Van]

I'm with 12Strings on this, I'm not seeing the distinction. I never said we 'incorporated ourselves into Christ.' I believe that God does that as a result of faith in Christ. The corporate view is really just a perspective shift. Its understanding the intent of the author as either speaking of choosing individuals (based on foresight or unconditionally) or speaking of choosing 'whosoever believes' (the church, group, those in Christ). I think everything else over complicates this basic distinction.

Why not answer my question, why ask yet another question. Does God choose us individually for salvation based on crediting our faith as righteousness and individually sets us apart in Christ?. Please give a yes or no.

You say God incorporates us as a result of faith in Christ. Who determines whether we have "faith in Christ?" God does according to scripture. He does so individually according to scripture. Individually, He sets us apart in Christ according to scripture. This is how we are chosen for salvation according to scripture. 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

 

[12strings]

I explained my position. Do you agree with it? Why are you just asking a series of questions that you know misrepresent my view?

I still don't understand what your view is. If you think that I do understand your position and am simply asking questions to misrepresent your view, then I guess there is nothing I can do about that... I'm simply trying to restate your position in different words to help me clarify what you mean. Hopefully I can explain why below.

Not all believe. That is correct many reject the gospel or accept it halfway.

yes.

Next for the second time you misrepresent what I said. I said we are chosen on the basis of God crediting our faith, and for the second time you have rewritten it to say God chooses some to credit.

Number 2 is correct except again you have God choosing then crediting, rather than choosing on the basis of faith. God knows our hearts and he knows if we really believe from the heart or whether we still treasure worldly things. The differences revealed in the Bible are found in several places, including Matthew 13:1-26. Notice in Matthew 7 how those who have love in their hearts for the least of these, and not dead faith make the grade. We could go on and on about what the Bible teaches is going "all in" for Christ.

Ok, this sounds like you are saying: "God chooses to accept people whose faith is real and true."

God does choose all those whose faith He credits as righteousness. Does God choosing depend on the man that wills to be saved? No. Romans 9:16. God has mercy upon those He has mercy.

Now this sounds like you are saying: "God chooses NOT based on a person's will to believe, but rather on God's choice ALONE. (not based on the person's faith).
-Can you see how these to seem contradictory?

Whoever believes in Him, as determined by God, shall not perish but have eternal life. This is what the Bible teaches clearly and repeatedly. For anyone to pretend this is somehow strange doctrine is ludicrous.

So again, Do you mean God determines who will believe in him, or that God determines that all who do believe in him (not determined by God) will not perish but have eternal life.

 

[12strings]

Who determines whether we have "faith in Christ?" God does according to scripture. He does so individually according to scripture. Individually, He sets us apart in Christ according to scripture. This is how we are chosen for salvation according to scripture. 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

Again, What is the difference between this and the calvinist position?

 

[Skandelon]

Why not answer my question, why ask yet another question.

Bro, you are sounding a bit defensive. If you look at your last post, the one I replied to, you didn't even ask a question.

Does God choose us individually for salvation based on crediting our faith as righteousness and individually sets us apart in Christ?. Please give a yes or no.

I don't even understand what that means. Your question is very convoluted to me. I think you've over complicated this, but I'll try the best I know how: We enter Christ by faith. And I would say that, yes God is the one who credits that faith as righteousness and chooses to place us in Christ based upon our filthy rag, mustard seed sized faith. And, finally, all who are in Christ have been predestined for adoption.

You say God incorporates us as a result of faith in Christ. Who determines whether we have "faith in Christ?" God does according to scripture. He does so individually according to scripture. Individually, He sets us apart in Christ according to scripture. This is how we are chosen for salvation according to scripture. 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

So, are you in agreement with Calvinists on this point? I'm not following you? Are you saying God preselects individuals and determines for them to have faith?

 

[Van]

"Ok, this sounds like you are saying: "God chooses to accept people whose faith is real and true." No, no , no! You are trying to make the faith, which is worthless, into something of merit, deliberately denying the very essence of faith which is our total surrender to Christ.

God asks us to surrender to Christ, to trust Him alone and not lean on our own understanding. It is God who credits our faith as righteousness, He does not say, yes 12 Strings, you have believed all the right things so your faith merits salvation.

 

[Van]

Who determines whether we have "faith in Christ?" God does according to scripture. He does so individually according to scripture. Individually, He sets us apart in Christ according to scripture. This is how we are chosen for salvation according to scripture. 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

Again, What is the difference between this and the calvinist position?

Scripture God credits our faith
False doctrine, God gives us faith

Scripture God sets us apart in Christ
False doctrine God chooses non-existent beings to put into Christ after Creation

Scripture God chooses us based on crediting our faith as righteousness during our lifetime.
False doctrine God chooses non-existent beings not based on their characteristics before creation.

 

[Van]

Skandelon, rather than make a charge against me, i.e. you are being a bit defensive, why not answer my question.

Not to parse what you said, but does God choose to place us in Christ or does God set us apart in Christ, i.e. He transfers us from the realm of darkness, which we are incapable of existing, and puts us into the kingdom of His Son.

Next you said all who are in Christ are predestined to adoption, but this could be understood incorrectly. Scripture teaches After we are spiritually put in Christ, then we are predestined to adoption and given the Spirit of Adoption.

 

[Skandelon]

Van, your view is not clear. Can you point to a scholar who expounds on this view so we can read it and better understand what you are attempting to say.

I agree with many of your comments. I do believe it is God who credits our faith as righteousness and places us in Christ. I don't believe God is 'choosing non-existent beings,' but your statement, "God chooses us based on crediting our faith as righteousness during our lifetime," is not clear.

 

[Skandelon]

Skandelon, rather than make a charge against me, i.e. you are being a bit defensive, why not answer my question.

1. I said you seemed defensive, which you do.
2. You didn't ask a question in your previous post, as I already told you.
3. I did attempt to answer your question in my last post, but as evidenced by the many responses on this forum, you questions aren't exactly easy to understand. Your view seems very convoluted, which is why you are getting so many questions.

 

[Van]

So again, Do you mean God determines who will believe in him, or that God determines that all who do believe in him (not determined by God) will not perish but have eternal life.

No,no,no, God does not determine who will believe in Him, that is Calvinism's false doctrine. God chooses us for salvation on the basis of Him crediting our faith as righteousness or not. Romans 4:5, 2 Thessalonians 2:13. We are saved by grace through faith, not we are saved by faith through grace. That is the Calvinist reversal of scripture once again.

 

[Skandelon]

God chooses us for salvation on the basis of Him crediting our faith as righteousness or not.

This is a confusing statement Van. You need to unpack it and reword it. It doesn't address the issue at hand, or if it does it does so in such a convoluted manner that no one can understand what you mean.

 

[Van]

Skandelon, I did not see any answers.

God chooses us based on crediting our faith as righteousness during our lifetime," is not clear.

Saying something is not clear, but not saying what is unclear seems convoluted to me.

How about, During our lifetime, rather than before creation, does God chooses us individually for salvation?

Does God base His individual election of us upon God crediting our faith as righteousness?

 

[Van]

How is an individual person incorporated into Christ? When they trust in Christ, does God automatically accept their faith and put them in Christ?
Nope. We are put in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit, based on faith in the truth. Who determines whether our faith will result in being transferred from the realm of darkness into the Kingdom of His Son? God or does it occur automatically if we believe all the right things? God does, because salvation does not depend upon what we will or do, Romans 9:16.

This concept of John 3:16 is so simple a child can understand it. God loved the world of fallen men in this way, He gave His one of a kind Son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. God did not decide who would believe beforehand, but God decides who does believe from the heart, and these whose faith He credits as righteousness, He places spiritually in Christ.

 

[12strings]

First...

VAN: This concept of John 3:16 is so simple a child can understand it. God loved the world of fallen men in this way, He gave His one of a kind Son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. God did not decide who would believe beforehand, but God decides who does believe from the heart, and these whose faith He credits as righteousness, He places spiritually in Christ.

Based ONLY on this paragraph, Here's what I've got: God does not determine who will have faith, or give them that faith...but he does decide who believes from the heart (that is, not decide who will have faith, but upon seeing the faith, God alone is the judge of whether one's faith is true or not). These whose faith is true, God credits as righteousness, and places spiritually in Christ.

[IS THAT IT???]


I really wish we could stop here...but then there's this...

How is an individual person incorporated into Christ? When they trust in Christ, does God automatically accept their faith and put them in Christ?
-Nope.

This seems to say that it is NOT our faith that determines whether God accepts our faith and credits it as righteousness, but rather God's choice based on something else (which is ....what?)

We are put in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit, based on faith in the truth.

-Ok, now we are back to being put in Christ based on Faith in the truth.

but...

Who determines whether our faith will result in being transferred from the realm of darkness into the Kingdom of His Son? God or does it occur automatically if we believe all the right things? God does, because salvation does not depend upon what we will or do, Romans 9:16.

So we are left with this quesiton, which is the heart of what I don't understand about what you are saying:

--> Will there be some people, who DO have faith in Christ (and remember you said "God does not determine who will believe in him.")...but who for some reason, God will NOT accept their faith (because you said it is not automatic) and will therefore be lost?
-If Yes, some with faith in Christ will not be accepted...what is the difference based on, a difference in the type of faith, or a difference in God's choice to accept them or not?
-If no, All who have true faith in Christ will be accepted...how is what you are saying different than what Skan. is saying? Is it simply you feel he skips the important step of God crediting our faith as righteousness? It still sounds like it is the person's choice to believe or not that makes the difference.

 

[Van]

12 Strings, why is this difficult. Lets start with your first statement,

God does not determine who will have faith, or give them that faith...but he does decide who believes from the heart (that is, not decide who will have faith, but upon seeing the faith, God alone is the judge of whether one's faith is true or not). These whose faith is true, God credits as righteousness, and places spiritually in Christ.

Why did you stick "is true" into what I said. Did I say that? Nope. Again, you are trying to make the faith into something of merit, when it is not. It is God who credits our faith as righteousness, and when He does, He is not recognizing something worthy of salvation, but is having mercy upon our wretched soul.

You are right, it is not our faith that determines whether God saves us, but God himself saves us based on Him crediting our faith as righteousness. How many different ways do I need to say this. You think you are saved, right. According to my belief, that means God credited your faith as righteousness and placed you in Christ. But, I also believe I am saved. That means God credited my faith as righteousness also. Now do we agree on what we believed concerning Christ. Yes on some things, but no on others. So it is not the content of our faith, but our surrender to Christ that is our common ground. You believed you were a wretched vile, horrible person who deserved punishment in Hades and Gehenna. I knew I fit that bill.

As for you last question, I already addressed Matthew 7 and those with faith in Christ who are rejected, not based on doctrine but based on love for the least among the brethren. They did not really love Jesus with all their heart, because they did not care for His family. This is not rocket science. What is our daily prayer. Forgive us as we forgive others? A humble person does not find fault in those around him, he finds opportunities to help in the ministry of Christ. Can you imagine holding something against a person after we have been forgiven for so much?
Jesus died to obtain forgiveness, and we would find fault?

What is faith in the truth? Who is rotten to the core. Who died to obtain forgiveness. And who, beloved in Christ, accepted you?

 

[12strings]

12 Strings, why is this difficult. Lets start with your first statement,

God does not determine who will have faith, or give them that faith...but he does decide who believes from the heart (that is, not decide who will have faith, but upon seeing the faith, God alone is the judge of whether one's faith is true or not). These whose faith is true, God credits as righteousness, and places spiritually in Christ.

Why did you stick "is true" into what I said. Did I say that? Nope. Again, you are trying to make the faith into something of merit, when it is not. It is God who credits our faith as righteousness, and when He does, He is not recognizing something worthy of salvation, but is having mercy upon our wretched soul.

You are right, it is not our faith that determines whether God saves us, but God himself saves us based on Him crediting our faith as righteousness. How many different ways do I need to say this. You think you are saved, right. According to my belief, that means God credited your faith as righteousness and placed you in Christ. But, I also believe I am saved. That means God credited my faith as righteousness also. Now do we agree on what we believed concerning Christ. Yes on some things, but no on others. So it is not the content of our faith, but our surrender to Christ that is our common ground. You believed you were a wretched vile, horrible person who deserved punishment in Hades and Gehenna. I knew I fit that bill.

As for you last question, I already addressed Matthew 7 and those with faith in Christ who are rejected, not based on doctrine but based on love for the least among the brethren. They did not really love Jesus with all their heart, because they did not care for His family. This is not rocket science. What is our daily prayer. Forgive us as we forgive others? A humble person does not find fault in those around him, he finds opportunities to help in the ministry of Christ. Can you imagine holding something against a person after we have been forgiven for so much?
Jesus died to obtain forgiveness, and we would find fault?

What is faith in the truth? Who is rotten to the core. Who died to obtain forgiveness. And who, beloved in Christ, accepted you?

Thanks for the clarifications, I think I get what you are saying...now the actual debate can begin! :laugh:

Addressing the two statements of yours that I have bolded above:

Are you saying that there are actually people in the world who "Love Jesus with all their heart"? I know that I don't fit this description hardly EVER! I still love myself way too much. Is it only those in whom God sees whole-hearted love for Jesus (expressed in caring for the least of the brethren) that have their faith credited as righteousness? What of those of us who Love both Jesus and ourselves, and have to constantly fight to make sure we are putting Jesus in his rightful first place?

Do you see conformity Jesus' Great Commandment as the prerequisite for God accepting our faith?

I see the Great commandment as as a summary of God's perfect requirement as a holy God, that none of us can meet...which is the whole reason Jesus came to live and die and rise, so his perfect righteousness in loving God with his whole heart could be counted instead of our "filthy rags" righteousness.

 

[Yeshua1]

Thanks for the clarifications, I think I get what you are saying...now the actual debate can begin! :laugh:

Addressing the two statements of yours that I have bolded above:

Are you saying that there are actually people in the world who "Love Jesus with all their heart"? I know that I don't fit this description hardly EVER! I still love myself way too much. Is it only those in whom God sees whole-hearted love for Jesus (expressed in caring for the least of the brethren) that have their faith credited as righteousness? What of those of us who Love both Jesus and ourselves, and have to constantly fight to make sure we are putting Jesus in his rightful first place?

Do you see conformity Jesus' Great Commandment as the prerequisite for God accepting our faith?

I see the Great commandment as as a summary of God's perfect requirement as a holy God, that none of us can meet...which is the whole reason Jesus came to live and die and rise, so his perfect righteousness in loving God with his whole heart could be counted instead of our "filthy rags" righteousness.

How CAN God base election upon what I decide to do with jesus though, as my sinful nature will seek to deny His claims over my life unless/until God grants me a change of heart?

 

[Van]

1) Yes, I am saying that people love Jesus with all their heart.

2) Does God reveal a specific criteria upon which He bases His crediting that faith as righteousness. To a degree yes. It must be sincere, from the heart and not a lip service profession of faith. It is faithful faith, i.e. a commitment to Christ - a love of Christ - that results in thinking and doing our best to serve Him, even if such "followship" results in persecution.

3) God knows our hearts, our innermost motives and attitudes, and so makes His individual election based on faith and not works which will flow from faithful faith. The thief on the cross did not do works, but Jesus accepted His faith in Him.

4) Every time we take communion, we are to examine ourselves to see if we are of the faith. When we look back, what do we see? Our failures, our stumbles, our un-Christ-like behaviors and thoughts. But what is our response. Do we say, oh well, since I am saved I can practice sin with impunity? Or do we say, "Van, you are such a prize" you must do more to serve Christ, not on the internet, but among my brothers and sisters within my local assemble. Can we look back and see progress, not just in knowing how far we miss the mark, but in being an ambassador of Christ?

Trust me 12 Strings, the more mature we become, the more we see how wretched we are.

Last point, after we are saved, born again, regenerated, put spiritually in Christ, arise a new creation, created for good works, we can build on the foundation of Christ with imperishable stuff that results in eternal rewards. We are sheep of His pasture, and our job is to feed on His word, grow more mature, and serve Him, reaching others for Christ. Not with perfection, but with all we have got, each day. We are to keep our eyes on the prize, and follow Him along the straight paths of righteousness.

 

[Van]

One of my favorite stories is John chapter 21. Here we have Peter, who knows he has failed. Who knows of his all too human frailty. Jesus asks him Do you love me unconditionally? Peter says, I love you like a brother. Jesus says do you love me unconditionally (using agape yet again). Peter says, you know all things, I love you like a brother, (using philo). Then, 12 Strings, Jesus says "Do you love me like a brother?" Feed my sheep. Jesus accepted Peter, not because he hit the mark, but because he was doing all he was able to do at that time. Later, of course, Peter, after growing more Christ-like, would stretch out his hands and go where he did not want to go.

God Bless

Van