What do BB Arminians Believe?

[Winman]

Skan, and Winman, too:

So you are saying we are chosen based on our response to God's call? And anyone who would put Faith in Christ would then be chosen? I think I get what you are saying, but I'm still not sure that's a great explaination for saying that we are "Chosen" by God, but here is a illustration I just though of...tell me if this describes what you are saying:

Kids are in a big group waiting for the football coach. Kids are lined up and the coach says, "Anyone who wants me to choose you to be on the team raise your hand." If anyone raises their hand, the coach says, "Ok, come over here, you're chosen." If someone doesn't, they are not chosen.

2 more questions for SKAN regarding corporate election:

1. Would you say that in your corporate election view, we were actually chosen twice? Once from the foundation of the world corporately in Christ, and then we are individually "chosen" when we put faith in Christ? Is this the same thing that Van is saying? (We are elected in our lifetime when we put faith in Christ?)

2. Does the corporate election view exclude totally the foresight of faith view? If so, How does the corporate election view interpret "Those whom he foerknew, he predestined.

My view is similar to Skan's but not quite the same. He does not agree with the foreknowledge view I have, Van also does not agree with my view.

But yes, I believe we are chosen IN HIM. Now Van interprets this to mean in time.

Now I am going to say something confusing, I believe we are chosen in time when we actually believe, but I also believe we were chosen IN HIM before the foundation of the world. Let me see if I can explain.

Imagine time being a circle like a clock-face. God is standing at 12 o'clock. When he looks clockwise, he sees things as they actually happen in time, just as we do. This explains statements such as when God told Abraham, "NOW I know that you fear me".

But now imagine God looking counter-clockwise from the 12 o'clock position. Now he sees all things that have already taken place in time. Now he knows when a person will believe, even before they actually believe. In this view he is not waiting to know what will happen, he already knows everything that will ever happen. This is my analogy to explain the foreknowledge view. It is like us knowing the past, we can know the past perfectly.

So, when Jesus said, "Ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep", this is looking in the counter-clockwise perspective, Jesus already knows they will never believe, and they were never chosen.

However, looking in the clockwise perspective, God only knows us personally when we trust in him as Galatians 4:9 says.

This explains how God can know everything, yet in some scriptures God speaks as though he learns in time (Abraham sacrificing Isaac).

Looking forward, God elects a person as they believe in time individually. But looking backwards, God knows all who will ever believe and elects them corporately.

I hope this hasn't been too confusing, it is the only way I know to explain my view.

This would explain how Paul could say he was "in Christ" in time, yet also say we were chosen IN HIM before the foundation of the world.

Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

This view allows free will decisions, and still supports that God will bring about all things exactly according to his plan.

 

[Winman]

Another analogy would be the old VCR tapes you would rent years ago. Sometimes folks wouldn't rewind them, so you had to rewind them before you could watch the movie. You could watch the movie in reverse and know exactly what was going to happen to the hero at the end from the beginning.

Now, if you have knowledge like this, you can allow a person complete freedom, yet control everything they do. It would be like playing chess, except you already know every single move your opponent is going to make. Or it would be like a war, if you already know where your enemy is going to attack, you could be ready and counter him. This is what we actually did at the Battle of Midway, we intercepted Japanese radio transmissions and knew exactly when and where they were going to attack. This is foreknowledge. We were ready and waiting, and handed them a big defeat.

 

[convicted1]

Aren't you guys tired of this Arminian vs Calvinism debate?

Well, I don't really have a choice, per se, in regards to responding to all of these Cal vs Arm debates. God elected me according to my free will to either respond or not. In reality, I have no free will to respond, because God elected me from eternity past, to exercise my free will to either respond or not. :wavey: :love2: :flower:

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Well, I don't really have a choice, per se, in regards to responding to all of these Cal vs Arm debates. God elected me according to my free will to either respond or not. In reality, I have no free will to respond, because God elected me from eternity past, to exercise my free will to either respond or not. : :love2:

Apparently then your post was pre-determined, even though it made no sense. :tongue3:

 

[Van]

Rather than accept what scripture says, few are chosen, Skandelon rewrites it to read, few self-select themselves for inclusion. Not what it says, but adherence to doctrine over scripture is found in both Arminians and Calvinists.

As far as the "everyone who raises his hand, I will choose illustration" the problem is God does not choose everyone who raises his or her hand, for it does not depend upon the man that wills. The folks in Matthew 7 who said Lord, Lord, had raised their hands. So the Arminian position fails with few are chosen, Matthew 7 and with Romans 9:16. Verse after verse must be nullified to support the Arminian view that they "incorporate" themselves in Christ. Not what the Bible says.

 

[Skandelon]

Rather than accept what scripture says, few are chosen, Skandelon rewrites it to read, few self-select themselves for inclusion. Not what it says, but adherence to doctrine over scripture is found in both Arminians and Calvinists.

Van, you just falsely quoted me. I am not known for my brevity so I'm quite sure I've written enough for you to actually quote the words that I write rather than making up some.

In the parable the Groom (God) selects who will receive the invitation, which ends up being EVERYONE (many are called.) But only those clothed in wedding clothes (faith in Christ) are allowed to enter (few are chosen). How else do you read this parable?

And please don't put words in my mouth again, we have enough people doing that without you starting.

 

[Van]

Gideon's 300 where chosen by God. God arranged the circumstances to select the 300. But does the passage say God knew how the men would drink, or simply that a few would choose to drink distinctively. No, the passage does not say, so for anyone to claim it says this or that about God's prior knowledge, they are just reading their doctrine into the text.

Why is it so hard to simply stick with what scripture says?

 

[Van]

Skandelon, save your false charges. There are no quotes, so I did not falsely quote you. I described what you said with clarity. You seek to avoid clarity and so you charge me to change the subject.

I say again, you deny that God specifically chooses individuals for salvation. This is the truth. Therefore, by logical necessity, you believe in self selection. This is the truth.

 

[Skandelon]

You did not describe what I said you drew conclusions based on your misconceptions and you have yet to provide your interpretation for the banquet parable. I explained clearly my perspective, why don't you do the same, please.

 

[Van]

As far as the party, those who were not dressed appropriately were rejected. Matthew 7 says the Lord will reject and will say on that day, I never knew you. So every single person at the party will be chosen or rejected at some point.

God chooses individuals for salvation by setting them apart in Christ on the basis of crediting their faith as righteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:13

 

[Van]

First you charge me with falsely quoting, then with drawing false conclusion, all generalities without stating you believe God chooses individuals specifically for salvation.

Your behavior seems quite similar to many of the Calvinists who must hide behind double speak. Jesus says our yes should be yes.

Rather than address what you believe is my poor behavior, why not address the actual position. Does God specifically choose us individually for salvation and put us spiritually in Christ, or do we incorporate ourselves in Christ when we put our faith in Christ.

 

[Skandelon]

So, how exactly do we differ on this point?

 

[Van]

I believe the election of Ephesians 1:4 is corporate, God chose His Redeemer and therefore corporately elected whoever His Redeemer would redeem. Therefore our individual election for salvation occurs during our lifetime, after we have lived without mercy. Thus "chosen in Him" refers to our corporate election before creation. But since names are written in the Lamb's book of life from or since the foundation of the world, the timing of individual election for salvation is not before creation.

I think we are chosen individually and spiritually placed in Christ by God based on crediting our faith as righteousness. So we, Skandelon and Van, differ on how one becomes a member of the corporately elected group.

I say God chooses us individually and places us in Christ, and the Arminian Corporate Election view has people incorporating themselves into Christ automatically when they believe.

My view is consistent with all scripture and neither the Calvinist view, individual election before creation, or the Arminian Corporate view, meshes with 1 Peter 2:9-10, James 2:5, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 1 Corinthians 1:26-30 , 1 Peter 1:2 and so forth.

 

[12strings]

I believe the election of Ephesians 1:4 is corporate, God chose His Redeemer and therefore corporately elected whoever His Redeemer would redeem. Therefore our individual election for salvation occurs during our lifetime, after we have lived without mercy. Thus "chosen in Him" refers to our corporate election before creation. But since names are written in the Lamb's book of life from or since the foundation of the world, the timing of individual election for salvation is not before creation.

I think we are chosen individually and spiritually placed in Christ by God based on crediting our faith as righteousness. So we, Skandelon and Van, differ on how one becomes a member of the corporately elected group.

I say God chooses us individually and places us in Christ, and the Arminian Corporate Election view has people incorporating themselves into Christ automatically when they believe.

My view is consistent with all scripture and neither the Calvinist view, individual election before creation, or the Arminian Corporate view, meshes with 1 Peter 2:9-10, James 2:5, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 1 Corinthians 1:26-30 , 1 Peter 1:2 and so forth.

Van, will you please clarify what you mean by saying we are elected/chosen individually base on God crediting our faith as righteousness. WHich of the following is closer:

1. God chooses SOME who have faith, but not all, and credits their faith as righteousness.

2. God chooses SOME and GIVES them faith, which he then credits as righteousness.

3. God chooses ALL of those who express faith, crediting that faith as righteouseness...but is not the one who chooses who will have faith and who will not. (if this is it, I don't see how it is different than what Skan said).

 

[Van]

Hi 12 Strings, how does scripture read to you. Does God choose everyone who believes? No, those who say Lord Lord believed but were not chosen because their faith was not credited as righteousness.

Next, we are chosen on the basis of God crediting our faith as righteousness, not chosen then credited with faith as righteousness.

The process is clearly taught in 2 Thessalonians 2:13. The sanctification by the Spirit refers to being set apart in Christ. So we are chosen through the means of being set apart. Next we are chosen through or on the basis of faith in the truth. But since it is God doing the choosing it is faith He credits as righteousness, not simply our professing faith because it could be lip service faith, dead faith, etc.

So to rewrite your #1, God chooses believers whose faith He alone credits as righteousness and sets them apart in Christ. Not all who profess faith are chosen. This is our individual election for salvation.

So if you read Matthew 13:1-26, you will see the first soil had no faith, but the last three did. However, only one, the fourth soil was chosen because his faith was wholesale, holding nothing back. He was neither a lip service professer, i.e. the second soil, nor one who was unwilling to turn loose of his worldly treasures (i.e. goods or relationships) but instead went "all in" for Jesus.

 

[Yeshua1]

Van, will you please clarify what you mean by saying we are elected/chosen individually base on God crediting our faith as righteousness. WHich of the following is closer:

1. God chooses SOME who have faith, but not all, and credits their faith as righteousness.

2. God chooses SOME and GIVES them faith, which he then credits as righteousness.

3. God chooses ALL of those who express faith, crediting that faith as righteouseness...but is not the one who chooses who will have faith and who will not. (if this is it, I don't see how it is different than what Skan said).

basically, from reading all of the various postings on this "corporate election"..

Still seems that it is stating that we have the capability/means withus to accept/reject jesus, that we place ourselves into the Body/Church etc...

 

[12strings]

Hi 12 Strings, how does scripture read to you. Does God choose everyone who believes? No, those who say Lord Lord believed but were not chosen because their faith was not credited as righteousness.

Next, we are chosen on the basis of God crediting our faith as righteousness, not chosen then credited with faith as righteousness.

The process is clearly taught in 2 Thessalonians 2:13. The sanctification by the Spirit refers to being set apart in Christ. So we are chosen through the means of being set apart. Next we are chosen through or on the basis of faith in the truth. But since it is God doing the choosing it is faith He credits as righteousness, not simply our professing faith because it could be lip service faith, dead faith, etc.

So to rewrite your #1, God chooses believers whose faith He alone credits as righteousness and sets them apart in Christ. Not all who profess faith are chosen. This is our individual election for salvation.

So if you read Matthew 13:1-26, you will see the first soil had no faith, but the last three did. However, only one, the fourth soil was chosen because his faith was wholesale, holding nothing back. He was neither a lip service professer, i.e. the second soil, nor one who was unwilling to turn loose of his worldly treasures (i.e. goods or relationships) but instead went "all in" for Jesus.

So which of these are you saying...

1...Not all believe, but even those who do believe, God only chooses SOME of these to credit their faith as righteousness based solely on his choice, not something different between one person's faith vs. another?

Or...(2) Not all have faith, but among those who do have faith, only those who go "All in" for Jesus are chosen and have their faith credited as righteousness? (if so, how do define "all in" faith vs. "somewhat in" or "mostly in"?

or...(3) God chooses ALL those who have true faith (not just profess lip-service faith) and credits their faith as righteousness. (if this is the case, how is it different than what Skan is saying?

 

[Yeshua1]

So which of these are you saying...

1...Not all believe, but even those who do believe, God only chooses SOME of these to credit their faith as righteousness based solely on his choice, not something different between one person's faith vs. another?

Nope, as we all have the faith granted us by god to belive in christ!

Or...(2) Not all have faith, but among those who do have faith, only those who go "All in" for Jesus are chosen and have their faith credited as righteousness? (if so, how do define "all in" faith vs. "somewhat in" or "mostly in"?

Nope, for either saved by grace ALONE, or not saved at all!

or...(3) God chooses ALL those who have true faith (not just profess lip-service faith) and credits their faith as righteousness. (if this is the case, how is it different than what Skan is saying?

Nope, for the Lord chooses us in Chrsit first, and grants us what is required to have us accept jesus and live!

Still seems that we keep coming back to the issue if a sinner can freely accept jesus, or else has to be enabled by God first!

 

[Skandelon]

I believe the election of Ephesians 1:4 is corporate, God chose His Redeemer and therefore corporately elected whoever His Redeemer would redeem. Therefore our individual election for salvation occurs during our lifetime, after we have lived without mercy. Thus "chosen in Him" refers to our corporate election before creation. But since names are written in the Lamb's book of life from or since the foundation of the world, the timing of individual election for salvation is not before creation.

I think we are chosen individually and spiritually placed in Christ by God based on crediting our faith as righteousness. So we, Skandelon and Van, differ on how one becomes a member of the corporately elected group.

I say God chooses us individually and places us in Christ, and the Arminian Corporate Election view has people incorporating themselves into Christ automatically when they believe.

My view is consistent with all scripture and neither the Calvinist view, individual election before creation, or the Arminian Corporate view, meshes with 1 Peter 2:9-10, James 2:5, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 1 Corinthians 1:26-30 , 1 Peter 1:2 and so forth.

I'm with 12Strings on this, I'm not seeing the distinction. I never said we 'incorporated ourselves into Christ.' I believe that God does that as a result of faith in Christ. The corporate view is really just a perspective shift. Its understanding the intent of the author as either speaking of choosing individuals (based on foresight or unconditionally) or speaking of choosing 'whosoever believes' (the church, group, those in Christ). I think everything else over complicates this basic distinction.

 

[Winman]

Every one who comes in faith to Jesus will be saved (John 6:37), no one will be cast out.

The men in Matthew 7 depended on their works, not God to save them.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These men depended on their obedience and works. They called Jesus "Lord" in fact they said it twice. They boasted they had prophesied in Jesus's name, cast out devils, and did many wonderful works.

To believe in Jesus doesn't simply mean to believe he is Lord, it is to trust him alone to save you. It is casting yourself completely on him. It is like a man jumping out of a tall building and depending on firemen below to catch you with a net as they had promised.

The Pharisee and publican shows this:

Luk 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

The Pharisee believed in God, but he did not trust in God, he depended upon his own righteousness and works to save him.

The publican came with a humble heart, he confessed he was a sinner not worthy to be saved, but cast himself on the mercy of God. This is what saving faith is. The publican went down to his house justified, all his sins forgiven.