Featured What do BB Arminians Believe?

My view is similar to Skan's but not quite the same. He does not agree with the foreknowledge view I have, Van also does not agree with my view.

But yes, I believe we are chosen IN HIM. Now Van interprets this to mean in time.

Now I am going to say something confusing, I believe we are chosen in time when we actually believe, but I also believe we were chosen IN HIM before the foundation of the world. Let me see if I can explain.

Imagine time being a circle like a clock-face. God is standing at 12 o'clock. When he looks clockwise, he sees things as they actually happen in time, just as we do. This explains statements such as when God told Abraham, "NOW I know that you fear me".

But now imagine God looking counter-clockwise from the 12 o'clock position. Now he sees all things that have already taken place in time. Now he knows when a person will believe, even before they actually believe. In this view he is not waiting to know what will happen, he already knows everything that will ever happen. This is my analogy to explain the foreknowledge view. It is like us knowing the past, we can know the past perfectly.

So, when Jesus said, "Ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep", this is looking in the counter-clockwise perspective, Jesus already knows they will never believe, and they were never chosen.

However, looking in the clockwise perspective, God only knows us personally when we trust in him as Galatians 4:9 says.

This explains how God can know everything, yet in some scriptures God speaks as though he learns in time (Abraham sacrificing Isaac).

Looking forward, God elects a person as they believe in time individually. But looking backwards, God knows all who will ever believe and elects them corporately.

I hope this hasn't been too confusing, it is the only way I know to explain my view.

This would explain how Paul could say he was "in Christ" in time, yet also say we were chosen IN HIM before the foundation of the world.

Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

This view allows free will decisions, and still supports that God will bring about all things exactly according to his plan.

 

Another analogy would be the old VCR tapes you would rent years ago. Sometimes folks wouldn't rewind them, so you had to rewind them before you could watch the movie. You could watch the movie in reverse and know exactly what was going to happen to the hero at the end from the beginning.

Now, if you have knowledge like this, you can allow a person complete freedom, yet control everything they do. It would be like playing chess, except you already know every single move your opponent is going to make. Or it would be like a war, if you already know where your enemy is going to attack, you could be ready and counter him. This is what we actually did at the Battle of Midway, we intercepted Japanese radio transmissions and knew exactly when and where they were going to attack. This is foreknowledge. We were ready and waiting, and handed them a big defeat.

 

Well, I don't really have a choice, per se, in regards to responding to all of these Cal vs Arm debates. God elected me according to my free will to either respond or not. In reality, I have no free will to respond, because God elected me from eternity past, to exercise my free will to either respond or not. :wavey: :love2: :flower:

 

Apparently then your post was pre-determined, even though it made no sense. :tongue3:

 

Van, you just falsely quoted me. I am not known for my brevity so I'm quite sure I've written enough for you to actually quote the words that I write rather than making up some.

In the parable the Groom (God) selects who will receive the invitation, which ends up being EVERYONE (many are called.) But only those clothed in wedding clothes (faith in Christ) are allowed to enter (few are chosen). How else do you read this parable?

And please don't put words in my mouth again, we have enough people doing that without you starting.

 

You did not describe what I said you drew conclusions based on your misconceptions and you have yet to provide your interpretation for the banquet parable. I explained clearly my perspective, why don't you do the same, please.

 

So, how exactly do we differ on this point?

 

Van, will you please clarify what you mean by saying we are elected/chosen individually base on God crediting our faith as righteousness. WHich of the following is closer:

1. God chooses SOME who have faith, but not all, and credits their faith as righteousness.

2. God chooses SOME and GIVES them faith, which he then credits as righteousness.

3. God chooses ALL of those who express faith, crediting that faith as righteouseness...but is not the one who chooses who will have faith and who will not. (if this is it, I don't see how it is different than what Skan said).

 

basically, from reading all of the various postings on this "corporate election"..

Still seems that it is stating that we have the capability/means withus to accept/reject jesus, that we place ourselves into the Body/Church etc...

 

So which of these are you saying...

1...Not all believe, but even those who do believe, God only chooses SOME of these to credit their faith as righteousness based solely on his choice, not something different between one person's faith vs. another?

Or...(2) Not all have faith, but among those who do have faith, only those who go "All in" for Jesus are chosen and have their faith credited as righteousness? (if so, how do define "all in" faith vs. "somewhat in" or "mostly in"?

or...(3) God chooses ALL those who have true faith (not just profess lip-service faith) and credits their faith as righteousness. (if this is the case, how is it different than what Skan is saying?

 

Still seems that we keep coming back to the issue if a sinner can freely accept jesus, or else has to be enabled by God first!

 

I'm with 12Strings on this, I'm not seeing the distinction. I never said we 'incorporated ourselves into Christ.' I believe that God does that as a result of faith in Christ. The corporate view is really just a perspective shift. Its understanding the intent of the author as either speaking of choosing individuals (based on foresight or unconditionally) or speaking of choosing 'whosoever believes' (the church, group, those in Christ). I think everything else over complicates this basic distinction.

 

Every one who comes in faith to Jesus will be saved (John 6:37), no one will be cast out.

The men in Matthew 7 depended on their works, not God to save them.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These men depended on their obedience and works. They called Jesus "Lord" in fact they said it twice. They boasted they had prophesied in Jesus's name, cast out devils, and did many wonderful works.

To believe in Jesus doesn't simply mean to believe he is Lord, it is to trust him alone to save you. It is casting yourself completely on him. It is like a man jumping out of a tall building and depending on firemen below to catch you with a net as they had promised.

The Pharisee and publican shows this:

Luk 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

The Pharisee believed in God, but he did not trust in God, he depended upon his own righteousness and works to save him.

The publican came with a humble heart, he confessed he was a sinner not worthy to be saved, but cast himself on the mercy of God. This is what saving faith is. The publican went down to his house justified, all his sins forgiven.