What do you do with Rick Warren?

[donnA]

quote:
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Originally posted by GrannyGumbo:
The keyword is sound, balanced, expository preaching of God's Word. While Warren and other church-growth "experts" declare that they are encouraging pastors to change methods while keeping the message the same, such is not the case!

When pastors are encouraged to seek out the perceived needs of unbelievers and fulfill those needs, and when they are instructed to refrain from preaching certain messages or using certain Biblical texts in order to keep from offending or "turning off" the unsaved, then the message, not just the method, has certainly changed.
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Again, this is inacurate. The message is not changed. It is communicated differently. But until you see Warren instructig people to teach differnt doctrines, then your charge is of base. Starting with where people are in order to reach them witht he gospel is just sound evangeliam. And Jesus did it.

I agree.
It certainly in biblical to meet people where they are, and the bible peoples each preached differently from each other, so, so far nothing unbiblical.

I've read stuff from those folks for years and they pretty well hit the nail on the head when it comes to warning the people, but I'm done posting... God bless

You should check in to whether they are accurate. I don't know myself, but would want to be for sure. Especially before I tell it to everyone else.

After reading some of it, I found that it seems their biggest complaints were nontraditionalism. (is that a word, it is now), and not a devience from scriptural truths of salvation.

 

[Bible-belted]

Originally posted by GrannyGumbo:
I've read stuff from those folks for years and they pretty well hit the nail on the head when it comes to warning the people, but I'm done posting... God bless.

Given that you don't check the accuray of "those folks" claims by going to the surce, it is just as likely you've been deceived all these years, or, far more likely, when they've been right, it's been for the wrong reasons.

But I am glad to see you won't post on this anymore. Propaganda has no place in a discussion of this type.

Now about Warren's methods. I think Rev. G is wise is pointing out that you can't take it en toto without criticism. But there is a lot to learn there.

Katie is likewise corect in that his methods are non-traditional. He advocates losing jargon and associated ideas and methods of communicating the gospel. We may look at them as gospel truth, but they're not.

I believe Warren's greatest contribution is in his means of assimilating people into biblical ministry. He does good job of creating a true priesthood of all believers.

 

[All about Grace]

Rev. G: The greatest weakness of the work is that while he states that worship is the ultimate purpose of the church, he spends very, very little time dealing with that topic and his methodology undermines that ultimate purpose.

A couple of questions here:

1) Can you direct me to those texts that state that worship is the ULTIMATE purpose of the church? I am just curious here. I agree worship is a purpose (and probably the primary purpose), but I hear this statement tossed out a lot but rarely find biblical support offered for the proposition. I am looking here for texts that state that worship is primary over other obvious purposes of the church (such as evangelism and discipleship).

2) Can you clarify what you mean by his methodology undermines his statements on worship?

 

[All about Grace]

Originally posted by GrannyGumbo:
Thanks, but no thanks; not that I would ever "listen" to this man to begin with, after reading the following report, I know I never would. Take heed!

http://fundamentalbiblechurch.org/Foundation/fbcsdlbk.htm

Granny:

Are you implying this church is not going to be changing their name to Fundamental Community Church any time soon? Or perhaps Our Way is the Only Way Fellowship? Or maybe Legalism Community Church? Or how about "Where are those denominational titles found in the NT" Church?

Just having some fun. I breezed through the article and found the typical "if you are operating outside my fundamentalist box you are wrong" arguments used to justify all sorts of legalism.

As a matter of fact, I read nothing in the article that made me think "wow, Saddleback is operating outside biblical parameters."

Bottom line: if one does not prefer the methods Rick Warren employs, use your own and then we will come to your conference and learn how God used your methods to build a church.

 

[yankeefan]

I have read Rick Warren's book about the purpose driven church and I enjoyed it. I really like his ideas. I have also heard him preach in person before.

 

[tlange]

There is no argument, Rick Warren has everyones attention it seems.

Some things that bother me:

1) He is of an SBC background, why is he ashamed to be called a Baptist. I am an Independent Baptist and have been for over 15 years. I am not ashamed of it!

2) He advocates rock music and such like within the church. That bothers me.

When Criswell endorsed him, he was probably senile!

 

[Rev. G]

SBCbyGRACE:
I'm starting a new thread for your questions (General Discussions).
Rev. G

[ October 07, 2002, 01:33 AM: Message edited by: Rev. G ]

 

[Daniel David]

Fundamentalists have for years made "faithfulness to the written Word of God" their hallmark. Many fine sermons have been preached in which it was declared that God has not called us to be successful, but to be faithful. This principle is well documented in the Word of God. Noah faithfully preached for many decades, and yet seemed to have precious little fruit to show for it! While he may have only won his own family, he was successful in God's sight. Missionaries around the world have sown the precious seed of the gospel for years and have not seen much fruit for their labors. Yet Rick Warren strongly disagrees with that principle (p. 64). He argues that God HAS called us to be successful. He cites an example from the gospel in which the Lord Jesus judged the unfruitful tree (Matt. 21:19). He states that the nation of Israel lost its privileges because of unfruitfulness (Matt. 21:43). He concludes from this that God HAS called us to be fruitful and that God is not pleased if we are not successful. But in those examples he cites, the lack of fruit was the proof that Israel was an apostate, unbelieving nation. It had nothing to do winning souls for Christ.

 

[Daniel David]

When Rick Warren began his church, he started out using the very same methodology of Robert Schuller and Bill Hybels. Not surprisingly, Schuller praises the book inside the front cover, and Hybels highlights the book on his Willow Creek Internet web site! Warren spent twelve weeks going door to door and surveying the "needs" of the people (p. 139). Therefore, he offers what he calls a "full menu" of support groups for empty nesters, divorced couples, grief recovery, etc. In other words, offer the community/consumer what they want, and they will come. Perhaps the title "Market Driven Church" would suffice as well as "Purpose Driven Church." While he SAYS he is not "pandering to consumerism" (p. 200), his own words seem to contradict that. He states that church, in order to be successful, must target its audience, and then appeal to that audience. He even goes so far as to claim that Jesus targeted the audience of Israel "in order to be effective, not to be exclusive" (p. 158). In applying this philosophy to dress standards, Warren discovered that people in his community do not like to dress up, but instead prefer casual, informal meetings. Therefore, Warren said, "I never wear a coat and tie when I speak at Saddleback services [his home church]. I intentionally dress down to match the mind set of those I'm trying to reach."

 

[Daniel David]

Warren states that Jesus also used this methodology. He and His disciples "targeted people they were most likely to reach -- people like themselves. Jesus was not being prejudiced, he was being strategic" (p. 187). To say that Jesus targeted Israel because He could relate to them culturally and in order to be strategic (successful) flies in the face of prophecy, the real purpose of His ministry, and common sense. Jesus "targeted" Israel because He was sent there by His Father, not because He felt He would be more successful there than in Egypt!

 

[Daniel David]

Man-centered philosophy: Examples of this philosophy abound throughout the book. His aim is obviously to please men. Consider Rick Warren's own words:
Figure out what mood you want your service to project, and then create it. (p. 264); We start positive and end positive. (p. 271); We use humor in our services ... it is not a sin to help people feel good. (p. 272); Cultivate an informal, relaxed, and friendly atmosphere. (p. 272); We made a strategic decision to stop singing hymns in our seeker services. (p. 285); We have attracted thousands more because of our music. (p. 285); Saddleback now has a complete pop/rock orchestra. (p. 290); Use more performed music than congregational singing ... (p. 291) (emphasis on entertainment); The ground we have in common with unbelievers is not the Bible, but our common needs, hurts, and interests as human beings. You cannot start with a text ... (p. 295); Make your members feel special ... they need to feel special. (p. 320,323)

 

[Daniel David]

More could be posted about Warren, but I have school to go to.

Bottom line is this: he is no friend of fundamentalism. He is more interested in numbers than faithfulness. He is the type of preacher I will preach against the rest of my life (because I know that apostacy will come from within - not from without).

 

[All about Grace]

PtheW:

After reading all you have said against Warren, I still fail to see where he has compromised the gospel in any way. Choosing to present the gospel in a relevant fashion and thru relevant means does not mean that the integrity of the message has been sacrificed. You may disagree with his style, methodology, dress, music preferences, church growth principles, ministry philosophy, etc, but that makes him no less of a threat to the gospel than you.

Your rantings and ravings amount to personal preferences. So until you have some substantive, biblically supported, legitimate criticisms of Warren, perhaps it is best to simply say you disagree with the way he chooses to do ministry.

In the end, you have the right to choose how to do ministry and so does Warren. And as long as neither violates clear biblical principles, both are equally legitimate.

If your username reflects your desires in preaching, I would encourage you to refrain from majoring on the minor by "preaching against" his type and focusing upon the essentials of how to know and serve Christ.

I will await any legitimate violation of biblical principle complaints you may have. Until then ...

 

[donnA]

If the gospel is being preached and people are being sved, there is only the problem of personal opinon and worship style preference. Which isn't biblical itself.

 

[cdawg]

PTW...You say that Warren is more interested in numbers than faithfulness. That depends on your idea of faithfulness. If you are familiar with the concepts in Purpose Driven Church, you know that one of the five purposes given is "Discipleship". The program used to systematically disciple, equip, and integrate new believers into the body and ministry of the church is far more advanced than most churches I am aware of.

Many churches (if they see anyone saved) seem to close their eyes and hope the person "sticks". This is producing the shallow Christians, not pastors like Warren who desire for people to reach their full potential for God.

CC

 

[Daniel David]

Rick Warren is pastor of Saddleback Community Church and director of 'Building a Purpose-Driven Church' workshops. Last January Dr. Dennis Costella attended one of these seminars where Warren taught that the following must occur to transform a traditional church into a dramatic growing church: 1) A contemporary-styled, non-threatening 'Seeker Service' must replace the traditional Sunday worship service. 2) The dress must be casual. 3) The music must be contemporary. 4) The message must be only positive so saved and unsaved alike can feel better about themselves after a message that often mixes psychology and an uplifting Scripture text. 5) Church ministries must be geared to meeting needs, with support groups for depression, eating disorders, infertility, homosexuals' family/friends, post abortion, and marital separation. Warren scoffed at the idea of passing out tracts or going door-to-door since the typical 'Saddleback Sam' is offended by such old-fashioned evangelism. 6) Doctrinal instruction is not given to the church as a whole on Sundays, but is available in sub-groups apart from services. 7) A spirit of pragmatic compromise must prevail. Warren was trained as a Southern Baptist, but said, 'It really doesn't matter your denomination, folks. We're all on the same team if you love Jesus.' Such a worldly ecumenical 'seeker' church may please PEOPLE, make them feel comfortable and entertained, but is unscriptural and thus displeases God.

 

[Bible-belted]

By all means, let's ignore the meeds of the unsaved. Let's enforce dress codes for everyoine who wants to atttend a service. If they get in, let's ensure that the experience is totally a cross cultural one, and let them leave feling that they don't belong.

 

[SaggyWoman]

Grrrrrr.



Guys, get a grip.

1.) What IS our purpose here? I think Warren does well to maintain the five purposes.

2.) Is your church, Warrenite or not, doing what it fully needs to do biblically? I doubt it.

 

[Music Man]

Originally posted by Latreia:
By all means, let's ignore the needs of the unsaved.

I don't feel it is about ignoring the needs of anyone. It is more about putting God in the place of prime importance in our lives as individuals and as the body of Christ. We show God as being of supreme importance to us by worshiping Him. The worship of God is to be the priority of not only the individual Christian, but also, of the church as a whole.

Bruce Leafblad has written an article entitled, "Recovering the Priority of God", in which he deals with this issue. Here are a few excerpts from it:

God is the first priority of the church. Not people. Not ministry. Not growth. Not success. God and God alone occupies the place of ultimate and absolute priority in the church. However, this biblical ideal does not receive much attention in the highly people-centered, growth-dominated, success-oriented American church of today. From our preaching, our writing, and our lifestyle, it would appear that today's church is preoccupied with other matters...

In worship we continue to pursue God- to pursue a deeper, fuller, and increasingly intimate knowledge of Him. The psalmist Asaph expressed this holy longing in Psalm 73:25 (RSV): "Whom have I in heaven but thee? And there is nothing upon earth that I desire besides thee." These words of Asaph are an illustration of the priority of God in one's pursuits. Is this what today's church is seeking? Is this the one holy passion of American Christianity? Or has a lust for growth become the new priority of the '90s?

The priority of God in the pursuits of the church must not be surrendered to any rival- friendly or otherwise. Seeking first the kingdom of God will always be a pursuit of God and His reign in our lives, and it must ever remain the first, the primary, and the all-consuming pursuit for those who belong to Christ. The major hunger and thirst in the lives of all believers today will be no different from that of David when he wrote: "O God, thou art my God, I seek thee, my soul thirsts for thee, my flesh faints for thee as in a dry and weary land where no water is" (Psalm 63:1 RSV). Worship is about the priority of God in the church's pursuits.

Soli Deo Gloria,
Chris

[ October 11, 2002, 05:53 PM: Message edited by: Music Man ]

 

[LadyEagle]

Originally posted by SaggyWoman:
Grrrrrr.



Guys, get a grip.

1.) What IS our purpose here? I think Warren does well to maintain the five purposes.

2.) Is your church, Warrenite or not, doing what it fully needs to do biblically? I doubt it.

I agree, Saggy. This is pitiful.