What do you do with Rick Warren?

[TaterTot]

Well, I've read the book, heard Warren preach several times and attended one of the conferences. Jesus showed mercy to the adulteress. How would one like her be received in your church? (Or would she?)Paul said "To the Greek, I became like a Greek...I have become all things to all people so that by all means I might save some." Thats what I see Warren doing. That, and doing away with imbalances in church. I dont see anything wrong with Tuesday night visitation, but you gotta know what the purpose is behind it. Need another church program? (Dont get me started on that one!)Get back old members that got mad and left? (Or that one!) Evangelize the lost? (GET me started on this one!) I think so many feathers are ruffled about Warren because he IS very untraditional in his methods. So what if the offering is taken up at the end of the service, or not at all!! (gasp) So what if someone wears jeans to church. At least they are there and welcome. Our church had the chance to minister to 2 homosexuals recently and we blew it!! One accepted Christ, but he was still shunned. We didnt disciple him and now he is gone. There is a place for people like him at Saddleback. Personally, I LOVE meeting people where they are, but Saddleback probably wouldnt be for me. But they are standing in the gap where many of us fall sort.
TaterTot
OK, 1-2-3...pounce!

 

[Jim1999]

Harvey Springer was, I believe, a Texas Baptist preacher, who wore cowboy suits and behaves differently in the pulpit. He came to the very formal Jarvis Street Baptist Church in Toronto and preached his popular sermon on Jonah. His arms flailing and legs poking out from behind the pulpit. He came to the part where Jonah was cast overboard.....here he grasped his trousers and jacket in each hand and thrust himself beyond the pulpit and onto the floor. This in the formidable setting of Jarvis Street church. Oh my! No one looked down on Dr. Springer for his unusual style. They did remember his message.

Thankfully, preachers have different styles. Find the good, discard the bad, but let them honour God and worship Him, not the man. I think we put too much on men.

Dr. A.W. Tozer attended the pulpit in suits that appeared unpressed. His speech was not attractive, but I saw his Saviour when he spoke and the peripherals seemed faded and unimportant at the time.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Bible Student]

Just a question. Where in the Bible does it tell us the church is to be "seeker frindly?" I thought that the church was the meeting place of the Saints for worship, instruction and fellowship. Our evangelism was to be out in the world. Did I miss something?

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Great post Jim I appreciate your views.
Murph

 

[Music Man]

Originally posted by Bible Student:
Just a question. Where in the Bible does it tell us the church is to be "seeker frindly?" I thought that the church was the meeting place of the Saints for worship, instruction and fellowship. Our evangelism was to be out in the world. Did I miss something?

I have wondered the same thing!

SDG,
Chris

 

[Music Man]

Speaking of "seeker-sensitive worship" services, I thought I would share an excerpt from an article entitled, "Goat Sensitive Services" by Geoffrey Thomas:

So it is with worship: men make a fundamental mistake and that is to believe that the purpose of our gatherings on Sundays is for evangelism. Then they measure everything in our services in the light of the goats who may wander in or who have been invited. Nothing must threaten, mystify or intimidate them. Goats do not know the words or tunes of the hymns: so they commend praise in the form of a group singing songs. The concept of publicly reading from a book which they do not know is alien to them, so the reading should be very brief, if you have one at all. They move the Lord's Supper to a private function on Sunday afternoons or a Thursday night. The prayers should be short and simple, and so should the sermon, and it should touch on issues that matter to goats, such as loneliness, absent husbands, hopelessness, discontentedness, heartache, the difficulty of raising teenagers and how to cope with such troubles. From this Sunday meeting they should be encouraged to come to small study groups and take a course in what sheep believe. To end how we have been worshipping God for many years is strongly encouraged.

SDG,
Chris

 

[All about Grace]

Once again one of the Banner boys paints with broad strokes & attacks and burns mammoth size straw men. To focus upon one aspect of the purpose-driven model (in Thomas' critique - evangelism) and to ignore the overall balance is to miss the boat.

Warren makes it clear that worship is the primary aim of the church. I do not believe Thomas, or others from the land of Piperism who seem to make fighting phantoms a habit, would want to suggest that seekers should be turned away by the worship of the church.

I admire Geoffrey Thomas and have heard him preach in person, but he simply falls prey to the same tactic that so many like him do.

I would ask this question again and again and again:

Of the five purposes (worship, evangelism, discipleship, ministry, fellowship), which one is not a definite NT purpose of the church? And when you answer, please provide scriptural support.

 

[Music Man]

Originally posted by SBCbyGRACE:
I would ask this question again and again and again:

Of the five purposes (worship, evangelism, discipleship, ministry, fellowship), which one is not a definite NT purpose of the church? And when you answer, please provide scriptural support.

I am not sure you will like my answer, but I will give it a try anyway.

I think the biggest problem is that there is not really one verse (at least that I know of) that comes right out and says that worship is the purpose of the church and the other things(evangelism, discipleship, fellowship, ministry, etc.) are our tasks. I think though if you look at the whole testimony of Scripture, you will find that what God most desires for us is a restored relationship with Him. That restored relationship is ultimately the goal of evangelism, discipleship, etc. That restored relationship is worship (and not just a worship service at 11:00 on Sunday morning, but a “lifestyle” of worship/fellowship/communion with God, everyday). That is what we were created for– to worship Him, to bring Him glory. Evangelism is for His glory, just as the work of God in our redemption is ultimately for His glory:

Ephesians 1:5,11,12- In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- to the praise of his glorious grace...
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory...
Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession–to the praise of his glory.

God brings glory to himself by accomplishing that which man cannot do, restore the broken relationship between God and sinners. God uses us to proclaim the Gospel, as one step in the reconciliation of God and sinners. Reconciliation between God and sinner results in a relationship of worship/communion/fellowship with God.

I think another big problem is that there has been a confusion of the terms. There is a difference between “purpose” and “task”, but the difference has been blurred by some. My point is that our goal or purpose is not evangelism, anymore than on a road trip to California, the goal is driving down the road. The goal or purpose of the road trip is to get to California. The goal, or purpose, of evangelism is worship. And, just as my "task" on the road trip is driving my car, our task in the church is evangelism, discipleship, etc. Execution of the task results in reaching the goal. Evangelism, discipleship, etc. (the means to the end) results in worship (the end or purpose or goal). (please see John 4:23). Does that make sense? The bottom line:

Road Trip to California:
</font>

• goal (purpose)- to get to California</font>
• how?- (task) drive the car</font>

The church:
</font>

• goal (purpose)- restored relationship between sinner and God (worship)</font>
• how?- (task) evangelism, discipleship, ministry, fellowship, etc.</font>

That is why a worship service with evangelism as its goal is not really a worship service at all. If worship is a relationship, and more specifically a conversation with God, then having a seeker-friendly worship service is a bit like going out for a wedding anniversary dinner with your spouse and talking to the people over at the table next to you the whole night. Your attention is not on your spouse, but on other people. In worship, ultimately, our attention should be on God, not on the so-called “seeker”.
That may be more than you wanted, but I hope it has been helpful.

Soli Deo Gloria,
Chris

 

[All about Grace]

MM: [T]here is not really one verse (at least that I know of) that comes right out and says that worship is the purpose of the church and the other things(evangelism, discipleship, fellowship, ministry, etc.) are our tasks.

I think you are catching on here.

MM: That restored relationship is ultimately the goal of evangelism, discipleship, etc. That restored relationship is worship.

I would ask for a verse that indicates reconciliaton = worship

MM: That is what we were created for– to worship Him, to bring Him glory. Evangelism is for His glory, just as the work of God in our redemption is ultimately for His glory

I have no problem with your assertions here. But it still does not translate into the concept that worship is the only purpose of the church.

MM: God brings glory to himself by accomplishing that which man cannot do, restore the broken relationship between God and sinners. God uses us to proclaim the Gospel, as one step in the reconciliation of God and sinners. Reconciliation between God and sinner results in a relationship of worship/communion/fellowship with God.

Again, no problems here. Still not the issue.

MM: I think another big problem is that there has been a confusion of the terms. There is a difference between “purpose” and “task”, but the difference has been blurred by some. My point is that our goal or purpose is not evangelism, anymore than on a road trip to California, the goal is driving down the road. The goal or purpose of the road trip is to get to California. The goal, or purpose, of evangelism is worship. And, just as my "task" on the road trip is driving my car, our task in the church is evangelism, discipleship, etc. Execution of the task results in reaching the goal. Evangelism, discipleship, etc. (the means to the end) results in worship (the end or purpose or goal). (please see John 4:23). Does that make sense? The bottom line:

Road Trip to California:

goal (purpose)- to get to California
how?- (task) drive the car
The church:

goal (purpose)- restored relationship between sinner and God (worship)
how?- (task) evangelism, discipleship, ministry, fellowship, etc.

Purpose in the Warren paradigm is simply the answer to the question: why do we (the church) exist? Do we exist to worship? Absolutely. Do we exist to evangelize? Absolutely. Do we exist to make disciples? Absolutely. To bifurcate these purposes is to create an unhealthy balance.

Is evangelism ultimately for the purpose of creating worshippers? It is fair to state it that way, while at the same time recognizing that Christ followers have been given a command (go and make disciples). This instruction breaks down to a matter of obedience or disobedience. Therefore one of the primary purposes of the church (why we exist) is to fulfill this Great Commission. If we fail to do so, we have failed to do what Christ commanded us to do (thus failed to fulfill one of our purposes for existence).

Let me address this from a different angle: can a church fulfill its purpose of worship and fail to be evangelistic?

I think your proposition that reconciliation is grounded more in worship than evangelism is debatable. But that is for another discussion.

MM: That is why a worship service with evangelism as its goal is not really a worship service at all. If worship is a relationship, and more specifically a conversation with God, then having a seeker-friendly worship service is a bit like going out for a wedding anniversary dinner with your spouse and talking to the people over at the table next to you the whole night. Your attention is not on your spouse, but on other people. In worship, ultimately, our attention should be on God, not on the so-called “seeker”.
That may be more than you wanted, but I hope it has been helpful.

I find nowhere where I have tried to defend the concept that a worship service is to be designed strictly for seekers (IMHO Hybels in more in this line of thinking than Warren). When a church gathers, there primary aim should be worship. When a church disperses, their life should be a life of worship. This is not the issue. The question is: is worship the only purpose of the church (defined "reason for its existence") and the obvious answer to me is No. The church exists for other purposes as well which are equally as important for the overall health of the church.

 

[Music Man]

Originally posted by SBCbyGRACE:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> MM: [T]here is not really one verse (at least that I know of) that comes right out and says that worship is the purpose of the church and the other things(evangelism, discipleship, fellowship, ministry, etc.) are our tasks.

I think you are catching on here.</font>[/QUOTE]That doesn't mean it isn't Biblical.

Originally posted by SBCbyGRACE:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> MM: That restored relationship is worship.

I would ask for a verse that indicates reconciliaton = worship</font>[/QUOTE]Sorry I was not clear. Reconciliation results in a relationship, which is one of worship/fellowship/communion with God. The restored relationship is fellowship/communion with God, which is worship.

Originally posted by SBCbyGRACE:
Purpose in the Warren paradigm is simply the answer to the question: why do we (the church) exist? Do we exist to worship? Absolutely. Do we exist to evangelize? Absolutely. Do we exist to make disciples? Absolutely. To bifurcate these purposes is to create an unhealthy balance.

No, to bifurcate them is to define them properly.

For example, I work at a library as a quality control cataloger. My job is to check bibliographic records to be certain they are correct. So, my task is to check the record. My purpose (goal) is to be certain that all records are correct. How do I ensure that my goal is achieved? By carrying out my task, that is, checking the records.

That is how it is in the church. Our goal is the same as God's (or should be), to make disciples (or you could say, worshipers). How do we achieve that goal? The task of evangelism.

If the two are not bifurcated, the difinitions get muddied up. Task and purpose are not the same thing.

Originally posted by SBCbyGRACE:
Is evangelism ultimately for the purpose of creating worshippers? It is fair to state it that way, while at the same time recognizing that Christ followers have been given a command (go and make disciples).

Yes. Notice your word there, we "have been given a command". To give a command is to give orders. How do we carry out those orders? By executing our task. That is what we are to be about. The task is carried out in order to reach a goal, that is more people to worship God.

Originally posted by SBCbyGRACE:
This instruction breaks down to a matter of obedience or disobedience. Therefore one of the primary purposes of the church (why we exist) is to fulfill this Great Commission.

Our task is to fulfill the GC, the goal of which is to "create" more disciples/worshipers.

Originally posted by SBCbyGRACE:
I think your proposition that reconciliation is grounded more in worship than evangelism is debatable. But that is for another discussion.

My only point is that reconciliation results in worship, which is what we were created for.

If I have a relationship with a brother that is broken, and we reconcile, why did we reconcile? Did we reconcile, merely for the sake of reconciliation? Wouldn't we reconcile in order to reestablish the relationship. To reestablish fellowship between us. See? God reconciles us in order to restore the broken fellowship between us. To restore our worship of Him.

Originally posted by SBCbyGRACE:
The church exists for other purposes as well which are equally as important for the overall health of the church.

BTW, I don't mean to imply that evangelism, discipleship, etc. are not important. They are, they are just not the purpose of the church, but the task.

Why is that important? So we do not fall into the trap of making worship a means to an end. Worship is the end in and of itself. You must have evangelism before you can have true worship. Evangelism leads to true worship, which is a relationship with God, not merely another way to evangelize.

SDG,
Chris

 

[All about Grace]

That doesn't mean it isn't Biblical.

Let me get this straight -- there is not really a verse to support your train of thought, but that doesn't mean it isn't biblical. Have I got it right? I sure hope not.

Reconciliation results in a relationship, which is one of worship/fellowship/communion with God. The restored relationship is fellowship/communion with God, which is worship.

Agreed. But incomplete ~ relationship also entails obedience, which includes evangelism, discipleship, etc.

Again, I go back to a question you ignored or overlooked in the last post: can a church fulfill its purpose if it is "worshipping" but not evangelizing?

Our goal is the same as God's (or should be), to make disciples (or you could say, worshipers). How do we achieve that goal? The task of evangelism.

If the two are not bifurcated, the difinitions get muddied up. Task and purpose are not the same thing.

In the paradigm I am defending, purpose answers the question "why do we exist?". What question does "purpose" and "task" answer in your paradigm?

Yes. Notice your word there, we "have been given a command". To give a command is to give orders. How do we carry out those orders? By executing our task. That is what we are to be about. The task is carried out in order to reach a goal, that is more people to worship God.

Notice your word choice here: That is what we are to be about. Are you suggesting that these words have nothing to do with our purpose?

Our task is to fulfill the GC, the goal of which is to "create" more disciples/worshipers.

Again, this is purpose-laden language. You may substitue the words task or goal, but in reality, you are answering the why we exist question.

My only point is that reconciliation results in worship, which is what we were created for.

If I have a relationship with a brother that is broken, and we reconcile, why did we reconcile? Did we reconcile, merely for the sake of reconciliation? Wouldn't we reconcile in order to reestablish the relationship. To reestablish fellowship between us. See? God reconciles us in order to restore the broken fellowship between us. To restore our worship of Him.

I can agree with what you are saying here. I have no problem concurring with the idea that we have been reconciled for worship. My primary point is that AS A CHURCH our calling goes beyond worship. Why we exists goes beyond just to worship God.

BTW, I don't mean to imply that evangelism, discipleship, etc. are not important. They are, they are just not the purpose of the church, but the task.

To make them secondary automatically implies that they are not as important as worship. I just do not find this justification in the NT (just as you have not).

Why is that important? So we do not fall into the trap of making worship a means to an end. Worship is the end in and of itself. You must have evangelism before you can have true worship. Evangelism leads to true worship, which is a relationship with God, not merely another way to evangelize.

And I would simply suggest that yes worship is the end. It is one of the primary purposes of why we exist, but it is not the only purpose. We also exist in order to live a life of obedience, which entails GC living.

 

[Music Man]

Originally posted by SBCbyGRACE:
Let me get this straight -- there is not really a verse to support your train of thought, but that doesn't mean it isn't biblical. Have I got it right? I sure hope not.

No. I said that though there may not be one verse, you must look at the whole of Scripture.

Originally posted by SBCbyGRACE:
Again, I go back to a question you ignored or overlooked in the last post: can a church fulfill its purpose if it is "worshipping" but not evangelizing?

Of course not. Remeber my analogy? You can't get to California if you don't drive your car down the road. We would not be able to worship if someone had not first presented the gospel to us and we believed.

Originally posted by SBCbyGRACE:
In the paradigm I am defending, purpose answers the question "why do we exist?". What question does "purpose" and "task" answer in your paradigm?

purpose answers, "why we exist" or "what our goal is"
task answers, "what is our job", "what do we do to ensure that others can fulfill their purpose?"

Originally posted by SBCbyGRACE:
Notice your word choice here: That is what we are to be about. Are you suggesting that these words have nothing to do with our purpose?

That was a poor choice of words on my part. I used "about" like you would, say in, "He was running about from store to store." Sorry for the confusion.

Originally posted by SBCbyGRACE:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> BTW, I don't mean to imply that evangelism, discipleship, etc. are not important. They are, they are just not the purpose of the church, but the task.

To make them secondary automatically implies that they are not as important as worship. I just do not find this justification in the NT (just as you have not).</font>[/QUOTE]Who said anything about making them secondary? I didn't. I just made a distinction between them. If there is not distinction drawn between purpose and task, then of course it would seem that is what I am saying. But I draw a distinction between our purpose and our task. Those tasks are the most important tasks we as the church have. They are our primary tasks. They are not secondary to worship, just different.

You know, we probably are going to continue going around in circles here. I make a distinction between purpose and task, and you don't. I see from Scripture that our purpose on this earth is to worship God. Our task is to fulfill the GC. We are here, to glorify Him and enjoy Him forever (worship), but that is distinct from what we are supposed to be doing while on this earth (our task- evangelism, discipleship, etc.).

SDG,
Chris

 

[All about Grace]

Music Man:

I agree that this discussion is coming to a quick end. I will just conclude with a bit of clarification

You define purpose as: "why we exist" & you define task as: "what is our job".

IMHO there is little distinction between the two. God left us on earth for distinct purposes (which naturally entail specific acts of obedience). The reason for our existence is not solely to worship him. It is also to fulfill the great commands and Great Commission. I admit there is a distinction between worship & evangelism (just as there is a distinction between evangelism & ministry, etc.). What you have failed to demonstrate is how worship alone is the purpose and how these other "tasks" are not a part of our purpose.

Perhaps two simple yes - no questions will help: is worship the only purpose of the church? In other words, is worship the only reason for our existence?

You write: I see from Scripture that our purpose on this earth is to worship God. Our task is to fulfill the GC. We are here, to glorify Him and enjoy Him forever (worship), but that is distinct from what we are supposed to be doing while on this earth (our task- evangelism, discipleship, etc.).

But you have failed to show where Scripture teaches that our purpose on this earth is to ONLY worship God. Your belief seems to find its root more in the Westminster Confession than in the text.

One thing that is definite in the purpose-driven paradigm is that each purpose is scripturally supported. IMHO "worship as the only purpose of the church" has become a catchphrase for more Reformed-minded people (and I write as one such person), but there is little Scriptural ground for such an assertion. Piper and some others' influence in this area is evident.

A lot of this talk is a direct result of overreactions to Warren, Hybels and others who do ministry in a way which is at odds with those of a Piper-type mindset. I just believe we need to be careful about criticizing legitimate, biblically defensible approaches such as the purpose-driven paradigm w/o solid scriptural grounds to do so.

What I find in the NT is when Jesus was instructing his disciples on how to live life after he was gone (i.e., why they were going to be still around--the purpose of their existence), He seems to focus a lot more on acts of obedience than He did on worship. Furthermore when I examine the Early Church model, I find a community who encapsules the purpose-driven model. Even Paul's instructions to his churches centered upon their obedience to Christ. What I don't find in the NT is an example where the concept was: your purpose for existence is worship and here are the tasks that will help you accomplish it. So if this conversation is to continue, I would suggest you provide some texts that seem to teach this concept.

The ball is definitely in your court to show where worship is the only purpose of the church. Have fun