'Zackly.:thumbs:
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
What do you normally do when a Jehovah Witness knocks on your door?
- Thread starter TaliOrlando
- Start date
- Status
Why not?gb93433 said:
I'll give my answer in brevity hoping that you will be acquainted with some of the Scriptures that I will be referring with.
First I will show that this is an unsciptural practice for baptism is for the living.
Second I will show the purpose of baptism by using Romans 6:3,4--baptism signifying the death of our life of sin, and resurrection of our new life in Christ; obviously not for the dead.
Thirdly, it is a command of Christ (Mat.28:19,20.)
The command comes after salvation (as is the pattern of NT churches) Acts 2:41.
There is no example anywhere in the Nt of anyone ever being baptized for the dead.
Therefore (by deductive reasoning), I conclude that this is a practice of the heathen that Paul is referring to. Paul is correcting mistakes and disorders by the most carnal church mentioned in the NT. In fact in 1Cor.7:1 it indicates that the church wrote to him a letter asking him about these very problems. He is simply answering their questions.
Of coursre in the context of the Resurrection, if baptism pictures a resurrectioin to a new life, why would it be necessary to baptize a dead person who will never be raised from the dead (as the pagans do) if the resurrection is not going to take place.
Last edited by a moderator:
Annoy them!
If I don't have the time, I merely say so, go on about my business of farming, and they will leave.
When I do have the time, I have discussed the Bible with them, more than two hours in one case, many years ago, with varying results. Apparently, lately, they are not particularly interested in coming by, as much as they used to be, probably because I 'annoy the fuzz' out of them, discussing Scripture. I do not let one run to their literature with the preformulated 'answers' to give, but insist on remaining with the Scriptures. It seems to help, that I do not use a KJV, but rather a NKJV, for some of their responses are specifically directed to some KJV wording, to 'contrast' to the NWT. A smattering of Greek helps, as well, for they soon realize that I might accidentally know of which I am speaking, and am not as totally ignorant, as the expectation is.
I may now be on their 'avoid' list, for I have not seen one here in over three years. :tonofbricks: :laugh: :laugh:
Ed
If I don't have the time, I merely say so, go on about my business of farming, and they will leave.
When I do have the time, I have discussed the Bible with them, more than two hours in one case, many years ago, with varying results. Apparently, lately, they are not particularly interested in coming by, as much as they used to be, probably because I 'annoy the fuzz' out of them, discussing Scripture. I do not let one run to their literature with the preformulated 'answers' to give, but insist on remaining with the Scriptures. It seems to help, that I do not use a KJV, but rather a NKJV, for some of their responses are specifically directed to some KJV wording, to 'contrast' to the NWT. A smattering of Greek helps, as well, for they soon realize that I might accidentally know of which I am speaking, and am not as totally ignorant, as the expectation is.
I may now be on their 'avoid' list, for I have not seen one here in over three years. :tonofbricks: :laugh: :laugh:
Ed
It doesn't matter. We don't have to know. All we have to know is that it wasn't an acceptable practice in the eyes of Paul. It was a pagan practice that was not Biblical. To find out the exact answer you would have to go to extra-Biblical sources, just as you would have to do to find out the names of the various leaders of the nations or empires at that time.gb93433 said:
How's this for timing!! I'm sitting here logging on to this thread and who should come knocking at my door just 1 minute ago - my JW neighbors. Guess it's too late to put the chalk outline on the front porch with a few copies of the Watchtower scattered around!! 
Seriously - I've tried on several occasions now to witness to both these ladies (they are determined to see me in the 'true' church) and I'm as equally determined that their doctrine is false and have told them so. I can't get rid of them. In fact, they've ramped up their efforts. Last week they started a second team in the neighborhood from the local KH. I took the approach this morning of not answering the door. I simply don't want to have to defend my beliefs once again to people who are on automatic pilot and can't go beyond the programmed talk.
Seriously - I've tried on several occasions now to witness to both these ladies (they are determined to see me in the 'true' church) and I'm as equally determined that their doctrine is false and have told them so. I can't get rid of them. In fact, they've ramped up their efforts. Last week they started a second team in the neighborhood from the local KH. I took the approach this morning of not answering the door. I simply don't want to have to defend my beliefs once again to people who are on automatic pilot and can't go beyond the programmed talk.
Last edited by a moderator:
standingfirminChrist
New Member
In inviting them in, you are disobeying the clear written Word of God.
2 John 1:10-11 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
2 John 1:10-11 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
Last edited:
standingfirminChrist said:
The words used in those verses are exactly the same word used in
James 1:1. "James, a bond-servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad: Greetings.
It is a Greek greeting.
You mentioned earlier that you talk to them outside your door. Apparently you talk to them beyond a greeting. Why?
Then later I asked "So are you saying that to not give them a greeting is to not let them have the upper hand?"
I cannot believe how many questions I have had to ask to get an answer to one question which oyu have still not answered.
God's word is clear when you avoid the "What does it mean to me" method by studying to show yourself approved to God and correctly interpreting scripture in light of its historical context. Once you obtain the historical background and have obtained the correct interpretation then oyu can think of ways to correctly apply it in modern day America.
standingfirminChrist
New Member
gb93433 said:
I answered your question, gb. As usual, you just refuse to accept the answer given.
God's Word does not change. If He said don't invite them into your house then, He meant it. And He still means it today.
standingfirminChrist said:
What else did he say? What was the context of what he wrote? What was the historical location he spoke about. Where did Christians meet when they worshipped?
You never answered any questions about the second part of that passage.
I assume by what you wrote earlier that you will talk with them outside but never invite them in your home. Am I to asssume that you you would stand for hours and talk with them but never greet them in any way. I cannot imagine even saying, "Hi." If God's word is true and applicable to our lives then how would you handle that same situation when it is -25 outside? God's word is always applicable and you have chosen to apply it under ideal circumstances that fit your mind.
You are missing the context of that passage. The context is that you are not to invite them into your home or anywhere else to give them a platform and allow them to teach you, your family or your church.
The fact is that scripture address one who has a non-believing spouse. One is a believer and the other is not. In some cases the non-believer can be quite resistant. The Bible says to not divorce that person. Sometimes the non-believer has chosen to be involved in a cult or some man-made religion contrary to God's word and yet scripture tells the non-believer to not divorce that person. When a person is inside your home you still must deal with their false doctrine. The Bible says what will happen. I have watched almost all of my relatives and family come to know Christ because I have shared with them and prayed for them. Some are Mormons too. I always answer their questions and have some good discussions with them but always show respect for them. Theer is a time ot talk and a time to not discuss thsoe things. They know exactly where I stand and they keep hearing why when they ask.
It wasn't but a few years ago that a young man came to me asking for help. His sister had joined the Mormon Church. She was regularly surrounded by her Mormon friends. In fact her mother told me that when her daughter was in the hospital her Mormon friends were always there. She spoke to her parents a lot about Mormonism and tried to get them to join the cult. I gave her brother a lot of information to give to her and finally she left the Mormon Church. That was a day of celebration. If they had and I had written her off who knows what she would be doing today. People are not turned away by ignorant, arrogant Christians who do not care about anyone wxcept themselves.
A few years ago I dealt with a man who was involved in a cult as one of its main leaders. He finally left after 14 years.
My God is bigger than any cult or the demonic influences they may be influenced by.
Jesus has the power over life and death. It is not by my strength but by Him.
If you want to be like Daniel and refuse to bow down to the world then great. But if you choose to trust yourself and rely on your own strenghth and spend your time running in fear from people everyday that is your choice.
I choose to believe the simple clear message of God's word when He said,
"James 5:19,20, My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins."
The best piece of advice I can give you is that if you do not love those people at your front door then do not engage in any conversation or dialog with them.
standingfirminChrist
New Member
2 John 1:10-11 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
The greeting John warns against is not a casual greeting such as "Hi," or "How are you?" The greeting we are not to convey to those who teach false doctrine is "God be with you," "God's go with you," or such like.
I have witnessed to JW's in freezing weather when ice was on tree branches causing them to sag greatly, when telephone lines were on the verge of breaking because of the heaviness of ice... outside.
God did not put a stipulation "unless it is too hot," or "unless it is too cold" into that passage.
No, He said we are not to invite them in, nor are we to give them such a greeting as "God be with you."
I prefer to obey the Word of God.
The greeting John warns against is not a casual greeting such as "Hi," or "How are you?" The greeting we are not to convey to those who teach false doctrine is "God be with you," "God's go with you," or such like.
I have witnessed to JW's in freezing weather when ice was on tree branches causing them to sag greatly, when telephone lines were on the verge of breaking because of the heaviness of ice... outside.
God did not put a stipulation "unless it is too hot," or "unless it is too cold" into that passage.
No, He said we are not to invite them in, nor are we to give them such a greeting as "God be with you."
I prefer to obey the Word of God.
Not exactly. It is a greeting as well as a "farewell."gb93433 said:
The word is defined:
The word must be taken in its context. You simply showed how to take the word out of its context. There are many languages that use the same word for both Hi and Good-bye. "Chairo" is one such word. In 2John 1:10, the word is used as a farewell, and in James 1:1 the same word is used as a greeting--two separate contexts, but the same word. Thus the same word has an obvious two different meanings.
We have other examples of the same thing.
In Hawaii: Aloha--both greeting and farewell.
In Islam: Salaam or Salaam Alaikum--both greeting and farewell.
Thus you are not rightly dividing the word of truth here. The KJV has accurately translated "chairo" as God-speed" or in our present day language "good-bye" meaning "God be with you." That we are forbidden to do.
The requirements of bishops and deacons (servants) are that they be given to hospitality. It is the right thing to do no matter who you are. But 2John 1:10 is not speaking of a greeting; it is speaking of a farewell.
No, I am not defending another poster's answers. But the passage clearly states not to give them a farewell. It is not speaking of a greeting. And it says nothing about an upperhand. They are false teachers. Don't let them into your house. The teaching is plain.
That would be good for you to do.
The meaning is simple. When false teachers come to your door, do not allow them into your house. Period.
They are false teachers. That is a given. If they come for the sole purpose of teaching I do ask them to leave. If they are willling to listen and dialog then we will have discussion. Some choose to leave when they do not like the truth. Their partner sees that soon. I have seen a few shake and some get mad while I have seen others start to question their own teaching right in front of me.DHK said:
I am aware of other languages. We are not talking about other languages we are talking about the NT usage of the word in the Greek text.
The word for greeting is one word. It is the infinitive form. It is translated by one word "greetings".
Can you show me in scripture where it was ever used as a farewell? In every case I was able to find in scripture it is never used as a farewell but as a greeting.
I allow them in my house. Some of them are family members who belong to a cult. Over the years most of my family have dynamic Christians. They are not just pew sitters on Sunday. They are busy leading people to Christ and making disciples. Those who have chosent to remain in the cult are getting more and more outnumbered. There was a time when I was the only one whop gave a voice for Christianity in my family. I did not win them by not letting them in my home. Can you explain how I should have applied that verse differently as you suggest and have won them to Christ? I have had many many hours late into the night at times into the morning with a number of them. I can just imagine the picture of us standing outside with them in front of my door while the mosquitos would have had a good meal and then telling them they are not welcome. Just imagine Jesus doing that!!!
The sad thing is that your Christianity conveniently works, but not every time. What you need to keep in mind is that the false teachers then were not people who would sit in a home and dialog but rather like salesmen peddling their false teaching leading people astray. When people come ot my door I do not give them the liberty to lead a cult study. They get to take a lok at the Bible and I make them declare their error openly. I oin them down on their interpretation. I have had them tell me I am right in front of the other person they are with. I have them tel me if I am right or wrong. Over and over they admit they are wrong and I am right. They do not get another word in until they admit they are wrong once we lok at a passage they have talked about. everythimne if they bring up a verse Weiopen our Biblke and I we take a lok at what it says. They have no free reign to just go off on their tangent. They get confronetd on everything they say.
If one came to a church where I was pastoring I would quickly ask them to leave if they were there to teach people. It has happened and I have asked them to leave.
If your theology always works then you would know exactly every false teacher who comes into your church without asking or listening to them. I would be willing to wager a bet if I could, that you have false teachers in your church and do not know it. I would be willing to say that you have even opened the door for them and eaten in their home too. No doubt you have prayed with them too. The problem is that you just do not know it yet.
Robertson writes,
Greeting (chairein). Absolute infinitive (present active of chairô) as in Ac 15:23 (the Epistle to Antioch and the churches of Syria and Galatia). It is the usual idiom in the thousands of papyri letters known to us, but in no other
New Testament letter. But note chairein legete in 2Jo 1:10,11
Last edited by a moderator:
standingfirminChrist said:
The greeting in the text is not "God be with you." It is one word which is best translated "greetings."
The point is that if your theology does not work in every case then it does not work. It is a false theology.
I believe you have a convenient theology that does not always work. If your theology does not work with mosquitoes flying around and 99% humidity on a warm day or at -90 then it does not work. If it were to not work with a spouse involved in a cult then it does not work. That passage does not give a condition. So it must work in every condition it historically addressed. The real question is, "What is that situation?"
The setting of that verse has nothing to do with being nice and extending courtesies to them as you would anybody else. The clear point is that you are not to give them an audience and a place to teach their deception. If anyone comes to my house and will not take a look at what the Bible teaches and they are only willing to teach then they are not welcome and will not be in my home. If once they are in my home and they are unwilling to dialog and take a look at the Bible then I do ask them to leave.
When I deal with them I do not give them an inch. Every time they bring up a verse I ask to take a look at. Several years ago two Mormons came by my place and we talked. As we talked I asked if we could look up that verse they used. We did and each time they had no comment and kept going. I quickly brought them back to that verse they used. Each time I had them come up with their interpretation of the verse and each time they wanted to move on I had them give me their interpretation. Each time the older man told me I was right. Every time that happened that night. The younger man saw that every time we discussed a verse that what he told me in his presentation was wrong. I began to wonder about whether the young man was feeling alright. The younger person saw that every time he gave me a verse that it was wrong. That came right from the lips of his trainer. He began to shake like I had never seen anyone do.
Their false teaching is revealed by the light of the truth of scripture.
So you are willing to just let them peddle their deception to those who will listen without any input from you? How much more could you hate them and how much faster could you push them to hell?
standingfirminChrist
New Member
gb,
You can continue to disobey God's Word and invite them into your home, you can even wish the God speed. But be forewarned... if you do, God's Word states you are guilty of partaking of their evil deeds.
My Bible tells me the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience.
Can you withstand God's wrath for disobeying His Word?
You can continue to disobey God's Word and invite them into your home, you can even wish the God speed. But be forewarned... if you do, God's Word states you are guilty of partaking of their evil deeds.
My Bible tells me the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience.
Can you withstand God's wrath for disobeying His Word?
I have no argument with that. I have seen the same.gb93433 said:
When I quote you the definition of the word from Strong's, which shows half a dozen different meanings why do you disbelieve me? When I explain that it is a word used like a word in a couple of other languages why do you disbelieve me? Here are the facts:
The word "chairo" is used 74 times in the NT.
42 times it is translated "rejoice."
14 times it is translated "be glad."
5 times it is translated "joy."
5 times it is translated "hail."
3 times it is translated "greeting."
2 times it is translated "God speed."
1 time it is translated "all hail."
1 time it is translated "Joyfully."
1 time it is translated "farewell." (2Cor.13:11)
Apparently you didn't look too well, did you. The main definition of the word is rejoice, and it is used as farewell, not only in 2John, but also in 2Cor.13:11. Your argument holds no water.
Who is "them?" That is very important to define.
Most of my family belong to a false religion, but I would never deny them entrance into my house. That is not what the passage is speaking about, and I think you know that.
As they should.
What does this story, a red herring, have to do with the passage at hand? Nothing! Absolutely nothing! It is not talking about family members. It is speaking of false teachers (not family members) coming to one's house to deliberately teach about their false doctrine (such as J.W.'s coming and knocking at your door.) The Bible says not to let them into your house nor to say good-bye to them.
Yes, just like the J.W.'s and the Mormons do today.
Not everyone may have the skills that you have in dealing with the cults. Perhaps few do. Afterall, John was writing to a lady and her children when the Holy Spirit had these words penned. But they are still as relevant to us today as they were then.
Your argument goes like this: I am a great orator, highly skilled at expressing myself in public, have a great knowledge of lovely, beautiful poetical Biblical words that I can effectively put together in an emotional public appeal to God. Therefore I should be the one that the Pastor calls on to open in prayer and not the other deacon.
Your argument is based on pride. Because you have more Biblical knowledge than the average person gives you the right to circumvent the clear-command of the Word of God?? I don't think so. I appreciate your efforts in winning false teachers to Christ. I also do the same thing, and I have done so when the weather is a minus 25 degrees outside on the doorstep.
People of other faiths, even teachers, are encouraged to sit under the preaching of the Word of God. No one but our teachers and preachers can bring forth the Word of God. But all are welcome to attend. Remember, John was speaking about a home.
1. John is speaking about a home. And I do make sure that I know exactly who is entering my home. I would hope you would do the same thing, especially if you have young children.
2. John is not referring to a church. We have had Muslims, Sikhs, New Agers, Charismatics, liberals of various stripes, all enter our church at one time or another. They are all welcome. The gospel is preached. They get to sit under the preaching of the Word of God. But John is not speaking of a church. He is writing to a lady in her home.
You would lose. Firstly, our church is small and we know each other fairly well. Secondly, it is irrelevant, since John is addressing a lady in her house, and not a church.
You don't get it do you. I do not invite false teachers into my house. That is what the teaching is. You sure know how to pull a topic off the rails.
So that is what Robertson writes. He didn't give you all the pertinent information that you needed to know did he? He has also known to be wrong before. BTW, if you really demand the references for those 74 times the word chairo is used, I can provide them for you. I just didn't feel like typing them all out.
standingfirminChrist
New Member
I am seeing 68 verses with 'chairo' in them a total of 74 times.
Mt 2:10; 5:12; 18:13; 26:49; 27:29; 28:9; Mr 14:11; 15:18; Lu 1:14,28; 6:23; 10:20; 13:17; 15:5,32; 19:6,37; 22:5; 23:8; Joh 3:29; 4:36; 8:56; 11:15; 14:28; 16:20,22; 19:3; 20:20; Ac 5:41; 8:39; 11:23; 13:48; 15:23,31; 23:26; Ro 12:12,15; 16:19; 1Co 7:30; 13:6; 16:17; 2Co 2:3; 6:10; 7:7,9,13,16; 13:9,11; Php 1:18; 2:17-18,28; 3:1; 4:4,10; Col 1:24; 2:5; 1Th 3:9; 5:16; Jas 1:1; 1Pe 4:13; 2Jo 1:4,10-11; 3Jo 1:3; Re 11:10; 19:7
Mt 2:10; 5:12; 18:13; 26:49; 27:29; 28:9; Mr 14:11; 15:18; Lu 1:14,28; 6:23; 10:20; 13:17; 15:5,32; 19:6,37; 22:5; 23:8; Joh 3:29; 4:36; 8:56; 11:15; 14:28; 16:20,22; 19:3; 20:20; Ac 5:41; 8:39; 11:23; 13:48; 15:23,31; 23:26; Ro 12:12,15; 16:19; 1Co 7:30; 13:6; 16:17; 2Co 2:3; 6:10; 7:7,9,13,16; 13:9,11; Php 1:18; 2:17-18,28; 3:1; 4:4,10; Col 1:24; 2:5; 1Th 3:9; 5:16; Jas 1:1; 1Pe 4:13; 2Jo 1:4,10-11; 3Jo 1:3; Re 11:10; 19:7
Well, its been a while since I have encountered the Jehovahs Witnesses, but the last time they came *a'knocking* I invited them in, offered them some coffee...they refused...and we sat down for about an hour or so and reasoned from the scriptures.
If I recall correctly there were a couple of times where I sort of stumped them, and after they left I prayed that if any seeds of truth were planted they would come to fruition and they would be born again, leave the JW's, and be added to Gods church.
God bless,
Mike
If I recall correctly there were a couple of times where I sort of stumped them, and after they left I prayed that if any seeds of truth were planted they would come to fruition and they would be born again, leave the JW's, and be added to Gods church.
God bless,
Mike
- Status