What do you think the word "perfect" means in 1Cor. 13:10?

Briguy,

I asked you for evidence earlier. What is the evidence that the use of a different verb form for 'cease' indicates that it will cease at a different time as prophecy or knowledge? You haven't made a case for this idea. You just seem to assume it.

Also, the 'coulds' are in that post because the poster is extremely careful to argue 'is's instead of 'coulds' on points that can be decisively proven.

Btw, the quotes from the OT are quotes from the Greek Old Testament in use in the time of the writing of the New Testament, which probably greatly influenced the religious lingo of the day like the KJV has influenced religous terminology in the English world, if not more so.

Also if you will read the arguments carefully and look back to previous sections of the post, it is possible to follow his argument. it is just dreadfully slow doing so if you don't know the Greek forms already. Also keep in mind he uses two alternate forms of transliteration for each Greek word, one in which the Roman letters that resemble the Greek letters are used, and a more standard phonetic transliteration method.

His post knocks down a lot of assertions I have read over the years about this verse. Instances of someone stopping speaking, when they could start again later argues against the idea that the passage proves that tongues would cease once and never start again once they started.

The face that the same form for 'cease' is used for Christ calming the wind and the waves disproves the idea that the Greek word for cease in I Corinthians 14 carries with it the idea that the tongues will 'cease by themselves.' Clearly Jesus calmed the winds and the waves. They died down, but they did not cause themselves to cease.

 

I'm with the last three posts! Let me get my testimony out of The Fundamental Baptist forum...BRB...ok!!

I just started attending Ind. Fund Bapt. churches about 5 years ago, after I got saved (regenerated) after being a demonized, full-blown "gifts" prophetic charasmatic (with a "prophetic" "anointing-mantle"), so there has been a lot of things for me to work out, and I'll try to be as clear as possible.

(Independent Fundamental) Baptist- So far have been the most Biblically acurate group I know other than Brethern (about the same thing), Free Methodists, Free Presbyterians, some Bible and non-denoms (depending on the leadership), a Southern Baptist here and there (Charles Stanley, I like him) and whoever else I missed that isn't whacked out, compromised or apostasised, Bible versions excluded.

-How come Jack Chick won't write tracks against the Pentecostal/Charasmatic/Power Evangelism Hersies?-

Fundamental= Bible is God's Word (purity varies from translation)and is Innerant-Infallible-Inspired, The Trinity, The Lord Jesus Christ is God/Creator/Redeemer/"I Am", YAHWEH and all that pertains to Him (Virgin Birth + Gospel = Death, burial resurrection) for all,(esp. ME) benefits obtained by personal faith in Him brought on by Repentance, granted from Him to be and do all that God (through Paul) outlined in Romans and the Epistles he wrote (The Holy Spirit Literally living in your body -heart, concience, mind-, just like demons can do if your not saved) creating Christ in you the hope of Glory....And if your saved AND you know it then (in weak or strong changes, in the 6 various areas listed in I John) your life WILL SURELY show it.

I hope thats enough, Oh and your not sinless, but you sin less, and you can't lose your salavtion becaused you didn't save you if you are saved. Amen! I need to be nobody to be somebody in Him.
I am one of the "washed" masses, not yet chosen for "full-time" service _I don't like the word "layperson" It sounds dumb.


Perfect means the Holy Scriptures as found in the Textus Receptus and the Masoretic Text. Biblical Tounges, prophecies and "words o knowlege" have ceased Do NOT add to the Word of God.

I love you all!
Because He first loved me,

Bro. Brandon

 

Bro Brandon, Thanks for your input. Link and I are kind of at a stand off and I wasn't going to comment anymore but I will to your post. When you say "word of Knowledge" that makes me think of the 700 club. I don't believe the gift of knowledge means that. I believe it is a God given ability for a believer to understand the Bible at a higher level. The gift of Wisdom would be a God given ability to apply the Bible at a higher level. Prohecy as a gift is just a God given ability to uplift and encourage others through words. Prophecy in greek means "to speak before", not in a time frame but just "in front of". Anyway, I believe Tongues, Int. of tongues, Healing, and miracles, as gifts have ceased. The others I do not see a Biblical reason for them to be gone because I believe the "perfect" is either when we die and go be with Jesus or for those here when Jesus sets up His Kingdom on the earth, it is just that. Based on that I have to believe that the other gifts remain because they are here until the perfect comes. I do understand and appreciate the belief that all the gifts were miraculous and therefore gave the early gospel God's very Authority. Both seem to be good teachings. I am with the first camp now but I always have this little part of me that leans toward your side. I know that is wishy-washy but I am always learning and hope to grow and learn until I am with Him.

In Christ,
Brian

 

Brother Brandon,

Sorry you have gone backwards and not forward.

And Briguy,

No matter how many times you say it, it does not make it so.

Peace,

Tam

 

Tell that to the demon that The Lord Jesus Christ ripped out of my stomach (the "living waters flowing forth from the belly") on a highway in Kentucky, in a car ride in January of 2000, Tamborine person, because you have not ONLY insulted me by your statement and despised the Word of God by crying "peace, peace" when there is no peace, but have joined in with those who are under the curse of adding to the Word of God, by extra-biblical revelations. "Will the REAL Holy SPirit please stand up?" Christ dwells within me now, and I have been made whole!!!

The Son said that the Holy Spirit would bear witness to Him, not Himself.

Jesus IS God the Word

 

Tam, That was strong stuff from Brother Brandon. He makes a cool point about who the Holy Spirit bears witness too. The Holy Spirit has never been about self-exaulting Himself. We are saved by the trust in the Son's sacrifice and that is what the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit want us to understand. The Holy Spirit should not be seen in us to a point where it is "showy". The Holy Spirit in us is seen by how we love others. Jesus makes this painfully true in many teachings.

In Christ,
Brian

 

Dear Christlifter,

Sorry you took such offense at my statement. It was merely my own opinion. I am sorry you feel that you have to lash out at other brothers and sisters walking the same salvation road.

Briguy & Christlifter,



Go be whatever you all feel that God is calling you to be or do.

God Bless,

Tam

 

I sorry I lashed out Tam, please forgive me. I just was trying to make a point and it came out to strong, especially for someone I have never met.
Briguy is right..."And all men shall know you are my disciples by the love that ye have one toward another" (my paraphrase) Have a great day in The Lord Jesus Christ! Thats where the Spirit is!


Because of Christ and for you,
Bro. Brandon

 

Christlifter,
I don't know your experience so I cannot say whether you were demonized when you were in the Charismatic movement. What I do know is that the Bible teaches that being filled with the Spirit and exercising gifts of the Spirit is for real, and believe in them. There were people receiving false spirits in the first century, and there were people who were exercising real gifts back then to. The same is true today.

Briguy,
I think a good way of understanding what prophecy is is to read how Peter described Old Testament prophesying-- holy men of old spoke as they were moved (or carried along) by the Holy Ghost.

So prophecy involves speaking (singing, playing instruments, acting out, etc.) as moved by the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost may move someone to predict the future, or say a word of encouragement, or something that sounds like teaching, etc. The Holy Spirit can say whatever he wants to.

I understand a word of knowledge to be a 'word' (logos, a message, a piece of information, etc.) that the Spirit speaks to the individual. He may speak it out to others or he may not. I believe the 'word' can be anything the Spirit wants to say. It could be that someone has a certain sickness, or understanding of a doctrinal issue, a teaching to give, imo. I understand the difference between prophecy and a word of knowledge to be that a prophecy is a message God speaks THROUGH someone to another or others, and a word of knowledge to be a message/word that imparts knowledge that God gives TO someone.

It seems like you a redefining prophecy. I see that the Greek word for 'prophecy' is used to translate the Old Testament word for prophecy. the Greek word for prophet is used to translate the Old Testament word for prophet. Prophets had a message from God, basically 'quoting God' much of the time in the Old Testament. Why should 'prophecy' in the New Testament be any different? We even have examples of the types of messages referred to as prophesying in the New Testament. Agabus prophesied of a famine. Later, he gave a 'Thus saith the Holy Ghost' style message to Paul. Compare that to all the 'thus saith the Lord' messages in the Old Testament.

Evangelists, prophets, and teachers are listed as separate types of ministers in the New Testament (I Cor. 12, Ephesians 4.) Apparently, their ministries were somewhat different or they would have been listed as the same type of minister. Therefore it stands to reason that prophecy is something different from just regular 'preaching' or 'teaching.'