What do you think the word "perfect" means in 1Cor. 13:10?

[Briguy]

Tam, you forgot who you are talking to here. DHK takes the position that ALL the gifts have ceased. I take the position that only the miraculous gifts have passed. Tongues, Int. of Tongues, Healings and Miracles(as in the Gift of). Those four "gifts" are gone, the rest I believe remain.

Link, if the gift of Miracles is not raising the dead, what are you suggestiong it is? Are you thinking in the line of handling snakes and drinking poison? or maybe flying like a bird?, pulling a rabbit out of your robe? (ha ha).

Since the dead were raised by Peter and Paul for sure, it is logical to me that this would fit what a gift of a miracle would be. An ability to raise the dead at will but still only to give authority to the precious message of the Gospel

Link, would the proof you gave us for the vast healings you know of be convincing in a court of law?? Read what you wrote again and see how it seems as if you are "grasping at straws".

Have a great weekend everyone!!

In Christ,
Brian

 

[tamborine lady]

No Brian, I didn't forget what you believe. You said:

Tam, you forgot who you are talking to here. DHK takes the position that ALL the gifts have ceased. I take the position that only the miraculous gifts have passed. Tongues, Int. of Tongues, Healings and Miracles(as in the Gift of). Those four "gifts" are gone, the rest I believe remain.


Then you will never see those four, because you are blinded by your own logic.

Peace,

Tam

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

Then you will never see those four, because you are blinded by your own logic.

Peace,

Tam

Not if those gifts have truly ceased.
Hindus and Mormons do speak in tongues. So they are not blinded? Is this what you suggest? Is your gift the same as the Hindu gift of speaking in tongues? How do you know?
DHK

 

[Link]

DHk,

You are basing doctrine on what you read (or do not read) in the newspaper and not on the word of God. I ask you for scripture, and you talk about not hearing reports of mass healings.

I'll ask you again. Show me from scripture where healing or miracles ceased.

Briguy,

Like I said, I haven't seen any mass healings, though I have witnessed some individual healings. So I am not trying to put together a court case here. I was answering the assertion that there are no reports of mass healings and other miracles, which isn't true.

If we want to define miracles, we need to look at what 'miracles' are in the Bible. Here are some things I consider to be miracles based on what i see in the scriptures: turning water into wine, casting out demons, instantaneous healings, raising the dead, making an axe-head float, multiplying fish, bread, oil, etc.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Link:
DHk,

You are basing doctrine on what you read (or do not read) in the newspaper and not on the word of God. I ask you for scripture, and you talk about not hearing reports of mass healings.

I'll ask you again. Show me from scripture where healing or miracles ceased.

Acts 5:12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.

Acts 14:3 Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.

Romans 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

2 Corinthians 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

Hebrews 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

Hebrews 2:3-4 how shall we escape, if we neglect so great a salvation? which having at the first been spoken through the Lord, was confirmed unto us by them that heard; God also bearing witness with them, both by signs and wonders, and by manifold powers, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to his own will. (ASV)

Signs and wonders (ans gifts of the Holy Spirit) were primarily for the Apostles according to the above verses. When the Apostles passed off the scene so did the gifts. What was the purpose of these gifts" The message, "so great a salvation" was confirmed by the Apostles through signs and wonders and by the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Therefore--no Apostles; no gifts of the Holy Spirit. They were specificaly for the Apostolic age.
DHK

 

[tamborine lady]

DHK said:Not if those gifts have truly ceased.
Hindus and Mormons do speak in tongues. So they are not blinded? Is this what you suggest? Is your gift the same as the Hindu gift of speaking in tongues? How do you know?
DHK
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tam says: No, my gift comes from God. My Father who is in heaven. And for you to suggest otherwise is NOT vey nice. The Hindu gift has nothing to do with my gift.

I serve Jesus Christ. They serve Allah. Clearly not the same.

Tam

 

[Link]

DHK wrote,
**Signs and wonders (ans gifts of the Holy Spirit) were primarily for the Apostles according to the above verses. When the Apostles passed off the scene so did the gifts. What was the purpose of these gifts" The message, "so great a salvation" was confirmed by the Apostles through signs and wonders and by the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Therefore--no Apostles; no gifts of the Holy Spirit. They were specificaly for the Apostolic age.**

1. The Hebrews 2 passage you mention is about them that heard Christ, not specifically the apostles. There were at least 500 men who witnessed Christ's revelation, and the 70 did signs and wonders as well. Philip did signs and wonders.

2. In addition to 'them that heard him' some of the believers in Corinth were apparently able to do miracles and heal through the power of the Spirit.

3. I Corinthians 12 says that the purpose of these gifts is to 'profit withal.' Gifts like this are for the edification of the body. Not _just_ for authenticating.

4. If you accept the end of Mark as authentic, or at least representative of apostolic doctrine, notice that it says 'these signs shall follow them that believe.'

 

[music4Him]

In Acts 2:17 (this was right after those in the upper room got filled with the Holy Ghost and Peter was in the street preaching/talking)... Peter quoted the verse out of Isaiah...
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Is this where the Spirit is being poured out? Does Peter make mention when this will stop?..... Continuing on Peter said this....

Acts 2:19-21
And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Pay attention to verse 20....great and notable day of the Lord come

Read on down to verse 33

33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

What was it that they were seeing and hearing? Men they knew that couldn't speak their language were now speaking it fluently to them. To me I see a hint there where it might cease....go back up and read verse 20. Is this a posibility?

That’s why I asked what do you think the word perfect meant in 1Cor.13:10?
What if it was compared or kept in mind to what Peter is saying in Acts 2:20? Then what?

When did (or does) the gifts cease? 70 A.D.? When the bible was written? 2nd coming? Rapture?
The 2nd comming (to me) makes the most logical answer.

Also as Link has noted about the scripture in Mark. Them that believe will have signs following them.

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. 20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

 

[Briguy]

M4H, You and Link give the end of Mark as a proof but it totally ruins your case. You can't pull tongues out of the list and say that tongues is a sign that follows believers. What about drinking poison, holding snakes, casting out devils, healing anybody you want. The verse does not saying healing some or healing one with faith. It says you will lay hands on the sick and they will recover. That is a gauranty not an if. We would see these things happening in thousands of churches today if what you say these verses refers to is what they really mean. No, clearly, this was for the Apostalic age or kingdom age, that is to say the 1st century, the birth of the "body of Christ". The signs and wonders performed by few to give the new message authority and power. In Ephesians we read that the church was started on the foundation laid by the Apostles and Prophets, and so it was.

The other issue is that many do not believe that the end of Mark was in the original texts and thats why some translations do not include it.

M4H, when Peter quoted Joel he was making a point and giving a referrence but not saying that what Joel had said was happening in full because as we se from what you quoted most of what Joel said is not occuring yet. That would be an almost 2000 year gap in the begining of what Joel said to now and we aren't even seeing most of what he said yet. It seems M4H you want to pull out of verses only that which helps your case. I try not to do that because complete context gets lost when we pick and choose verses or parts of verses like that. Please call me on that if I do it because I want to practice what I preach (so-to-speak).

More to come, I think I still have some answers to give from previous page or so.

In Christ and in Christian Love,
Brian

 

[music4Him]

Are you trying to say I don't believe????

If it has ceased then we might as well call every missionary out of the mission fields and tell them they can't speak the natives language.

I believe you cannot learn another language without first believing you can. Then you will need knowledge (hey thats one of the gifts of the Spirit). Once someone learns another language can they take it up as a second language and speak it fluently just as thier native language? Cause I have been around people who speak english and spanish and speak both languages like its natural. Just as my Bro. in law speaks Czechoslovakian and english fluently.

Yes, I think the gift are necessary. I'm not saying that everyone has to speak in tongues to get to heaven. But for those who haven't heard the gospel of Christ, and if you love them enough to go tell them, then I think the gift of tongues and interprtation thereof is important! The way I understand it in 1Cor 12, some of the Corinthians were not using the gifts the right way...ergo Paul explaining the gifts. (1Cor. chapters 12 and 13) But the more excellent way is "using the gifts with love". I thought if you love your brother you'll share Jesus through your gift/gifts including word of knowledge, faith, prophecy, working of miracals, divers kinds of tongues, int. of tongues, discerning of spirits, word of wisdom, healing.

Oh but some people will deny the power thereof (I guess?) ...saying they learned those tongues on their own.

~Without Christ I can do nothing! But with Christ I can do ALL things.~

quote:
--------------------------------------------------
M4H, You and Link give the end of Mark as a proof but it totally ruins your case. You can't pull tongues out of the list and say that tongues is a sign that follows believers. What about drinking poison, holding snakes, casting out devils, healing anybody you want. The verse does not saying healing some or healing one with faith. It says you will lay hands on the sick and they will recover. That is a gauranty not an if.
--------------------------------------------------

Thats right Briguy in Mark 16 it says, "they shall"... except on the drinking of any deadly thing it says "if" they drink....then it shall not hurt them.
So there is one "if" there. But in the Mark 16:17-18, I have a question for you...
When you read that passage, is it saying (to you), if you believe you can do it because Jesus said so, then you can? example If you believe you can speak in new tongues, or you can pick up serpents (BTW, it don't say if they got to be alive or venomness(sp?) and I will pick up a grass snake with a garden hoe.

), or lay hands on the sick and they will recover, and if somehow I drink something deadly (unknowingly, because I surely I wouldn't tempt the Lord and do it on purpose)it won't hurt you.

Or do you read the passage as... if you believe in Jesus these signs will follow?

Which way do you believe that passage in Mark?

Music4Him

 

[tamborine lady]

In speaking of serpents in this passage, Strongs concordance says:

Serpent: 3789.
Search for 3789 in KJV

probably from 3700 (through the idea of sharpness of vision); a snake, figuratively, (as a type of sly cunning) an artful malicious person, especially Satan:--serpent.

So I see that as meaning handling (talking to) a sly and cunning person.

Not picking up snakes.

Peace,

Tam

 

[Providential]

Originally posted by beverly31:
So when do tongues (and prophecy for that matter) cease? or have they already ceased? When I studied this, I thought perfect meant the completion of writing and compilation of the New Testament. I thought tongues and prophecy were used as a sign to the Jews in the early church before the Bible was complete. After all, Jesus opened the scriptures from Moses, the Prophets, and Pslams to the disciples only after the resurrection (Luke 24:44-45) so only then did even the twelve have the ability to understand the Old Testament fully. What I mean is, weren't tongues and prophecy only used in the interim to help those folks understand who just couldn't get it any other way since the Bible didn't exist yet as we know it today? Aren't we suppose to trust the Bible to be complete now, not needing anything added by prophecy or tongues?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You got it right. Don't let anyone dissuade you otherwise.
DHK


The above is a Baptist-form of cessationism. It is not Scriptural. 1Cor 12-14 was written to GENTILES. The prophetic gifts, tongues were a part of regualr, normal church life.

Paul's point is that these things, great as they are, are not the ultimate--perfection is. That is stil future, and anyone who thinks the Scirputre brought perfection, or maturity into the body of Christ is simply delusional. We are immature, schismatic, divisive, petty, quarrelsome, etc. When the perfct comes, we will have arrived into maturity. This is yet to come, and therefore, the gifts are for today, and a normal part of Christianity. Some people are simly afraid of the Holy Ghost and His gifts in this Dispensation. This is the Dispensation of the Spirit, yet some Christians want to resist and limit His work today. His is ignoring them and baptizing many into these gits and anointings.

 

[Briguy]

Providential, your argument for "the perfect" is good as it is a future event for those of us alive but not for those who have died in Christ. Where you go wrong is that you are either denying scripture and practical application or just have never looked at this issue under sound teaching(that was not meant to be a cut down, please don't be offended.) Tongues were said by Paul, "to fade away on their own" They are different in that respect from the other gifts. Nothing causes them to end they just end. We know that they are a "sign" to unbelieving Jews. Signs point to things which will happen, in this case God's judging of Isreal and the scattering of the Jews thereafter. As told in Is. 28, which is why Paul quoted it in 1 Cor. 14. Anyway in 70AD the judgement came and the need for Tongues was over and so they "faded away on their own" just as Paul said they would. As for healing and miracle gifts. I just said in above post where Paul said that the foundation for the church was laid by the apostles and prophets, those whom we know that "signs and wonders" followed. It all works nicely together if looked at clearly. Anyway, we are far past the foundation and so those miraculous things which gave the gospel authority are now gone. We see this by the fact that NNE can do today what we see happening in the early church. That has been shown over and over by DHK and myself. Hope this helps as you seek the truth on this subject.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Briguy]

M4H, That was a nice try. Take the serpent part out. I'll give you that. Now, show me where you can lay hands on any sick person and they will recover. THEY WILL RECOVER!!!!! no "ifs" "ands" or "buts". Please drink a bottle of drain-o and report back to us please. (OK don't do that I don't want you to get hurt to prove a point). How about casting out a devil/demon or two. Done that lately?? These are clearly not verses for our dispensation. They are the signs and wonders of the early church, when the Gospel was shared with a show of power to give it authority. We are not in an age of miracles right now. Paul was later bitten by a snake and survived, that is why serpent probably just means snake but it doesn't have to. Thanks for making that point, I had not thought about it your way before.

In Christ,
Brian

OK, your turn,
In Christ,
Brian

 

[Link]

Briguy,

I am not convinced that the end of Mark is authentic. Be that as it may, the passage says 'These signs shall follow them that believe' and lists various signs. It does not specify that everyone who believes will be able to do each individual sign, or that every sign will be done completely at the believers will. Paul makes it clear that gifts are distributed among the body as the Spirit wills. These signs follow 'them' not necessarily each individual. Paul picked up a serpent. Tradition ays that Barsabas unknowingly was poisoned but was not harmed by it. We do not know if Barsabas ever picked up a snake or if Paul ever was poisoned.

The Bible does teach 'Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God' so we shouldn't go around drinking Drain-o. When Paul surivived snake bite, he didn't go around looking for vipers to show off how spiritual it was. He responded to the situation with the power of God.

But if you do accept the passage as authentic, then you must acknowledge that the passage says 'them that believe' and not 'them that believe in the first century.'

 

[music4Him]

Thank you Link~

I couldn't of said it better myself. Acually there are several places where Jesus is speaking of the comforter.

Here are a few that come to mind.........

~John 14:16 -
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

*forever = forever right?*

John 14:26 -
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


Mark 13:10
And the gospel must first be published among all nations. 11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. (When is this going to happen?).

And then there is this.........

Acts 2:33 -
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Acts 2:38 -
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

(*Just a note* In the 2 above verses of Acts 2, has anyone else realized one verse says "promise" and then 5 verses later it says "gift".)

Acts 19:2-6
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Hebrews 2:3-4
3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; 4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

 

[Briguy]

Link, I said before the same thing you did. The end of Mark may not be authentic. I would never site it as an argument for something just because of that. Link, it says that those signs will follow those that believe. I didn't say that everyone would have to do each of those things but it doesn't say that every person can't either. That said, please show me one Christian that can heal every person they lay hands on. Just one!!!! There should be thousands upon thousands with all the parts of the world that have Christians, yet I am asking for one. I believe you also could not show me one person who can cast out demons yet there should be thousands based on the statement in Mark. God has dealt with people different in different times. We are in a different dispensation then the early church and God is dealing with us somewhat differently. You see a difference from the Law to Grace right? We are just in the next step or phase of God's plan. We are a people who can believe without seeing and who do not need a sign, as many did in the early church. Jesus said to Thomas of us, that, Blessed are those who do not see, yet believe. That is the message of our times. Faith in Christ, without the glimmer and glamour of miracles, signs and wonders. Gentle faith and humble love are how we see that Christians are different then our world today, not by signs and wonders. The world has changed and so have God's people. We are peculiar indeed. Peculiar by how we love Jesus and love others. Hope that made a little sense. It came from my heart at any rate.

More later,
Brian

 

[Briguy]

M4H, I don't believe the Holy Spirit has changed at all. I don't believe God has changed at all. I do believe that in different times, because the world changes, that God deals with us in new and challanging ways. The same Holy Spirit that indwells me today indwealt Paul at the start of the "church". The Holy Spirit just directs our paths in different ways now because the world dynamics and the "Body of Christ" dynamics are different now.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by music4Him:


Acts 2:33 -
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Acts 2:38 -
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

(*Just a note* In the 2 above verses of Acts 2, has anyone else realized one verse says "promise" and then 5 verses later it says "gift".)

Thanks M4H, I never noticed that. So, I looked it up and this is what I understand it to mean.

That the "Promise" is what was prophesied and the "Gift" is actually the evidence of the "Promise."

Something else one may notice, in verse 33, is that the people could "see" and "hear" the evidence of receiving the Spirit of God. Interesting huh?


Promise:
1860. epaggelia epaggelia, ep-ang-el-ee'-ah
Search for 1860 in KJV


from 1861; an announcement (for information, assent or pledge; especially a divine assurance of good):--message, promise.


Gift:
1431. dwrea dorea, do-reh-ah'
Search for 1431 in KJV

from 1435; a gratuity:--gift.

Side note: Not to be confused with "Divers kinds of launguages."

MEE

 

[music4Him]

Originally posted by Briguy:
M4H, I don't believe the Holy Spirit has changed at all. I don't believe God has changed at all. I do believe that in different times, because the world changes, that God deals with us in new and challanging ways. The same Holy Spirit that indwells me today indwealt Paul at the start of the "church". The Holy Spirit just directs our paths in different ways now because the world dynamics and the "Body of Christ" dynamics are different now.

In Christ,
Brian

Hey Briguy,
I don't believe God nor the Holy Spirit has changed either.

Human race hasn't changed either....there are still 2 kinds of people in the world....the lost and the saved. But with you saying that God deals with us differntly in essence you are saying He does change. I won't argue with you, and if you feel that way then that might be where God wants you.

My idea of tongues in operation is this.

*Anyone who can speak a known language (i.e. spanish german, chinese...ect), but is unknown to others. They could have studied and learned the language, or just out of the blue started speaking it.

Until I am shown where it says that the 9 gifts of the Spirit no longer exsist today or were only for the early years of christianity, then I will believe they are still here. Until that which is perfect (complete) is come.

BTW, you might tell a bee it can't fly because its areo dynamically impossible. But the bee, by flying, has proved it can.