What do you think the word "perfect" means in 1Cor. 13:10?

[Briguy]

Link, you are fighting a losing battle on the tongues of angels thing. Paul was just saying, if he did the greatest miracle in all the world, it would be nothing if he did not show love to others. Anything we do in the world is nothing if it is not done with, through, and out of love. Paul was simply making a point. It does not matter what examples he used. If he had said that, Even if he could communicate in puppy language and speak to all puppies the point would be the same. We need to love through our actions or what we do is not counted worthy by God. There is no need to argue anything deep from Paul's words.

Link, tell me something. It seems that you, MEE, and M4H, all believe differently about tongues. If tongues were a gift for today why does the practice and beliefs about them vary so much from tongue speaking church to tongue speaking church? There is no controvery like that for gifts of preaching, administrations, etc...

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Briguy]

M4H, back to your singing. Are you saying that you can sing your song in Spanish without ever having seen the Spanish words or do you speak Spanish somewhat but do a better job with the words while you are singing?

If you have spoken in tongues for years why do you think God hasn't lead you to a neighborhood somewhere that is Polish or German for you to share the gospel. Are you confident that you could go to a Polish speaking neighborhood and speak Polish? Other gifts are at the will of the user, why not tongues?? Just food for thought. Answer when you can. Thanks!!

In Christ,
Brian

 

[music4Him]

Briguy,
I looked the words to the song up on the computer, but had never heard them pronounced. The only words I know in spanish is how to count to ten, please =porfavor, hammer= matia, dollar =denero, calente=hot (i'll be set if I need to ask for 10 hot hammers for ten dollars huh?

I also learned one sentance when I was a teen but I'll not repete it here.

I dunno if singing in Spanish is the same as speaking it. Ask some one who speaks it. All I know is what happened at my church.

quote:
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If you have spoken in tongues for years why do you think God hasn't lead you to a neighborhood somewhere that is Polish or German for you to share the gospel. Are you confident that you could go to a Polish speaking neighborhood and speak Polish? Other gifts are at the will of the user, why not tongues?
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I suppose thats why I was lead to go to that church where I sang.
Where do you get the idea that the gifts are at the will of the user? It is the Spirit who distributes the gifts severally as He will.

 

[Briguy]

Hi M4H, Hope you are well today. When I look at Spiritual gifts I tend to feel there is a reason the word "gift" was used. Whatever Greek word that may be but as far as I know all the best translations use gift. Anyhow, as I have stated before a gift is something that is fully given from one person to another. There is never the intention with a gift that the giver will still keep control of the gift. It is not a real gift if it is given with the intention of the person who got the gift not having control of it. That said there is gifts of administrations (governments), helps, praching/teaching, etc... that we can certainly say that there is no special anointing that happens every time the gift is used. The elder, gifted with administrations just uses his gift in his leadership and is a good leader because of it. People who help others more then ordinary just do it, no lightning bolt saying what to do, they just do it. Since I see nothing to say that gifts operate differently from eachother i believe they are all at the will of the user. The miraculous gifts are gone because there is no believer on the earth that can do those miraculous gifts at will anymore. Now miraculous things come only by God, sometimes by answer to prayer and sometimes not but always in His timing. God gave free reign to the early gifted believers to show the authority of the Gospel. That is why He gave mere man the ability to do miraculous things when they wanted. Confusing?? Logical?? Tell me so I can help you at least understand the reasoning behind what I am saying.

To your singing. If God allowed you one week to pronounce Spanish words better then you should have been able to do, that was God using you to reach people. That is not the gift of tongues, that is God using a willing vessel to bless people and forward His message. You are privlidged to be used in such a way. One other possible explanation is that singing uses a different part of the brain then speaking. Perhaps your singing brain is smarter then your speaking brain. Most people say I have no brain at all so you are in much better shape then me either way. Take care,

In Christ,
Brian

 

[music4Him]

Briguy,
All I know is I never took a Spanish class. After singing the song and after church was over people came up saying "I didn't know you knew Spanish?". All I can do is give God the glory.
As far as gifts go....when I was a child my mother gave me a easy bake oven although it was a gift didn't mean that I didn't need her right there to help me use my little oven. I feel the same way about the gifts of the Spirit.

quote:
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That is not the gift of tongues, that is God using a willing vessel to bless people and forward His message.
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So the people we read about in the bible were willing vessels?
I prefer to be a yeilded vessel.....to wait upon the Lord, because I know I cannot do anything without Him.

Music4Him

 

[DHK]

It is easy to either: get a swollen head, be easily deceived, or easily deceive others, or even all of the above.
I have been in enough countries to know that if I learn just a few words of the language of that nation--it need not be much--just a couple of sentences in some cases. Then, with that knowledge I can:
Deceive others into believing that I know the language (you don't have to speak a lot in a conversation with more than two people).
Be deceived into thinking that I know the language well, when I don't (if I begin to communicate with someone who is lucky enough to understand me in spite of my deficiencies).
Get proud of any accomplishments that I may have made, even though I may not have accomplished much linguistically.

So you may have sung. People may have enjoyed your voice much like my wife enjoys operas when she can't understand the language that they are sung in. Some may have understood a few Spanish words that were thrown in there and wrongly deduced (as well meaning people often do) that you know the language. You therefore conclude that you sung in Spanish, and in a foreign tongue that you never learned. In reality it is totally unverifiable, and very unlikely.
DHK

 

[music4Him]

Well DHK, you are entitled to your own opinion.

But I know that I know what happened. I could bring the preacher and his wife in here and they would testify and verify (they did missionay work in Mexico so they would know of all people if I was pronoucing the words right), but you would still not believe it.

 

[MEE]

M4H, IMO, I think that you have been insulted!

But..I will have to say that you took it with a good attitude.

You are to be commended.

MEE

 

[DHK]

Yes you are right. I am indeed one to be skeptical, and do as the Bible commands: "Prove all things."
I don't base my theology on people's experiences--that would be a foolish thing to do. I base what I believe solely on the Word of God--God's revelation to mankind. That is why I believe, what I believe.
Some other factors you might want to take into consideration:
People out of the goodness of their heart are sincere and well meaning, and generally do not want to offend people. It is possible that that is what happened in your case. Think about it.
What kind of song was it. I know from the music forum that you like CCM. Does it make a difference? You better believe it does. For an older person like myself (and presumably your pastor), there are many CCM songs that I cannot understand the words to when sung in English. I did not grow up with today's style of music. The closest I can get to "rock" music when I was unsaved, was the Beatles. I got saved after that era, and didn't listen to rock after that. I never did understand the lyrics of rock of any kind (secular or Christian) after that. It seems that the music always over-rode the lyrics. Or the lyrics were jumbled in with the music. It still sounds that way. If it is that way in today's English CCM, what would it be in a Spanish sung CCM song? One (like me) would able to understand a few words and that is all. Maybe from that they would deduce that you could speak Spanish, when really you can't. These are just possibilities. Am I a skeptic. Yes. Because everything that you say goes directly contrary to what the Bible teaches.
DHK

 

[Briguy]

M4H, did you have the Spanish words written down in front of you when you sang that day or did you memorize them off of the computer? Just dawnwd onme you may have been reading the words.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[music4Him]

Originally posted by MEE:
M4H, IMO, I think that you have been insulted!

But..I will have to say that you took it with a good attitude.

You are to be commended.

MEE

Insulted? No, they have a right to ask and it doesn't bother me.

Originally posted by DHK:

I know from the music forum that you like CCM. Does it make a difference? You better believe it does. For an older person like myself (and presumably your pastor), there are many CCM songs that I cannot understand the words to when sung in English.

DHK, I am 41 years old, I like all kinds of music. I sing old songs like "Peace in the Valley", old hymns, love the quartet/4quarter songs (but very rarely have a chance for group singing), but I also enjoy todays Christian music as long as it is has a witness to people or praising God and as long as they can be understood.
My pastor is 70+ years old and his wife is in her late 60's. Believe me when I say this, his wife would tell me if I messed up.

 

[DHK]

Whatever. I am not going to ask any more questions about your experience. Briguy has, and may still enquire further.
The main principle of which I base my life upon, and always have is the Word of God. Once a Charismatic came to me and told me that I was demon possessed because I did not speak in tongues, and then proceeded to try and cast a demon out of me. This was in a very public place--a crowded Christian book store in the down town area of a city. He only made himself look very foolish. He also ended up showing an absolute ignorance of the Bible. I doubt if he even was saved. His life was based on a series of experiences, tongues being one of them. People base their lives on experience nowadays, not doctrine. That is a dangerous route to follow.

I follow the Bible. When I know the Bible is right and the experience of an individual wrong, guess which road I am going to choose. I will choose the Bible every time. That's why I left the Catholic Church. It's doctrine was totally contrary to what the Bible taught. I didn't need anyone to show me that. I had been a Catholic for 20 years, and once saved began to read the Bible for myself. The clear teachings of the Bible were evidently opposed to the Catholic Church. Once could not be a Christian and believe what the Catholic Church teaches at the same time. One has to decide which road he has to take.

The same is true concerning spiritual gifts. They have ceased. The Bible is very clear on this subject. Emotions should not get in one's way, neither should one's anecdotal experience, or whatever experience they have had. The question each and every believer must ask for themselves is: "What saith the Lord?" And then answer it objectively. I pray that you have done that.
DHK

 

[Link]

DHK wrote,
>>I follow the Bible. When I know the Bible is right and the experience of an individual wrong, guess which road I am going to choose. I will choose the Bible every time. <<

That is the reason I believe in spiritual gifts. It is in the Bible. No amount of cessationists telling me they haven't experienced a gift will convince me not to believe the Bible on the matter.

DHK,
You have never showed where the Bible teaches that spiritual gifts ceased. I don't think you have ever even attempted to answer challenges to show that gifts__in general__ ceased. I am still waiting for you to produce some scripture that miracles ceased. All you have to offer to 'prove' this is experience-- you have never seen anyone clear out a hospital before.

Btw, how would people teach the Bible in church meetings today if all the charismata have ceased?

 

[DHK]

I have never, never, never, said that miracles have ceased. And I have told you that many times. It is almost as if you call me a liar to my face. Why don't you believe me. I said the gift of miracles has ceased, not miracles in and of themselves. There is a tremendous difference. God today grants his children what one might call miracles of grace--primarily answers to the prayers of God's children. But I have yet to see any Christian walk on water as Peter did, calm the waves of the Sea, make the iron to swim, stop the sun from setting, cause an earthquake at the exact time and place indicating the judgement of God, smite people down with the judgement of God by just a word (Annanias and Sapphira), etc. Many signs and wonders were done by the hands of the apostle.
Miracles were done:
In the time of Moses--in establishing the nation of Israel.
In the time of Elijah and Elisha--in preserving the nation of Israel.
In the time of Christ--demonstrating his deity
In the time of the Apostles--demonstrating and authenticating the Apostolic message.

Those were the primary periods of time when the majority of miracles were performed in the Bible. I am not saying that all the miracles in the Bible fall into that category; I am saying that most fall into one of those four categories, and for those reasons. We get to loose with word "miracle." "the miracle of the birth of a baby," for example. A miracle is something that is not a common and every day experience. It is supernatural in its essence, that is it transcends the laws of nature. God doesn't necessarily work against the laws of nature, but above the laws of nature, thus the word, super-natural (above the natural). The gifts of miracles have ceased. When you see someone feeding 5,000 men (multiply by about 4 to include women and children), with 5 loaves and 2 fishes, then come and tell me about it.
When ALL who come to a healer, multitudes from all the cities round about come to be healed, and they all are healed, then come and tell me about it.
Until then, don't tell me that the gift of miracles or healing is still in operation today. The burden of proof is on you, not me.
DHK

 

[Briguy]

Link, I have shown from scripture and from very basic logic that Tongues have ceased. You have not believed what the Bible says or at least you have not challanged the points I have made. I am not talking about our discussion on the use of tongues because we did discuss that nicely. Rather the argument I made about tongues fading away after God's judgement of Isreal in 70 AD. You want tongues to be for today because yourself and many of your closet friends speak in tongues. It would be hard for anyone in your position to look at the evidence without a huge bias. You have to look past the evidence because otherwise you have spent years doing something that was not actually something you should have been doing. I really do feel for your position on this. Still I am asking you again to lay aside what you have been practicing and what your friends do and say and look at what the Bible really says. Start by the fact that Paul uses a different verb for when the gift of Tongues end and when gifts of prophecy and knowledge end. Once you are able to recoginise that tongues end at a different time then you will be on a quest to find out when and I believe you then will see this subject more clearly. I hope you take me up on at least investigating the different Greek words used in 1 Cor. 13 for "cease" (or whatever english words are used - depending on translation). Take care,

In Christian love and concern,
Brian

 

[Link]

Briguy,

Where is your case for tongues ceasing in 70AD? I recall your saying the Greek said that tongues would just cease. DHK has asserted that I Corinthians 14 somehow is supposed to argue in favor of 70 AD. I don't see a case. Even if one interprets the Isaiah quote in I Corinthians 14 to be a about a sign for Jews per se-- which is not the point Paul draws out of it when he quotes it--then there is still no argument for tongues ceasing.

I have addressed this numerous times and haven't seen you or DHK deal with this issue.

1. Tongues has more than one purpose. Edification when accompanied with interpretation and sign.

If you argue that one purposed ceased, that doesn't mean tongues ceased because there is another purpose.

The human hand used to be used in the manufacture of vacuum tubes for electrical devices. These vacuum tubes are obselete. Do did the human hand cease to exist? No, it serves other purposes besides manufacturing vacuum tubes.

2. Jews are still around.

If the Bible did teach that tongues were only a sign for the Jews (not in scripture since some unbelievers are Gentiles and tongues are a sign for Gentiles) then you still have no scripture arguing for tongues ceasing in 70AD. There are still Jews after 70 AD.

Basically there is no case for tongues ceasing in 70AD. Can you show me any scripture arguing that tongues would cease at that time?

 

[Link]

DHK,

Please overlook my sloppy wording. But I still challenge you to show me in scripture where the _gift of_ miracles has ceased. I am not talking about babies being born any more than you are.

You wrote,
**But I have yet to see any Christian walk on water as Peter did, calm the waves of the Sea, make the iron to swim, stop the sun from setting, cause an earthquake at the exact time and place indicating the judgement of God, smite people down with the judgement of God by just a word (Annanias and Sapphira), etc. **

And this is my point. You base your beliefs here, not on the Bible, but on the fact that YOU have never seen this kind of miracle. If you claim to base your beliefs on scripture, then don't base your belief on the gift of miracles ceasing based on the fact that you have never seen these things. If you don't have scripture, then you should allow for the possibility of manifestations of the gift of miracles occuring today, at the very least (as a 'Gameliel compromise of sorts'.) Or you can go all the way and _believe_ the Spirit gives the gifts of miracles to members of the body of Christ like the Bible teaches.

It is clear to me that you base your believe in the gift of miracles ceasing on your experience (in this case, lack thereof) and not on scripture.

 

[DHK]

I have shown you from Scripture. That is all I have to do. The onus is on you to show me where they are present today. Like you refer to: a baby being born is not a miracle. It is an every day natural occurence. Show me where miracles are occuring today--as in the gift of miracles. Those who had the gift of miracles could perform miracles (sometimes at will), which were supernatural in nature. Elijah made an axhead to swim. Can you? Do you know any one who can?
Demonstrate that the gift of miracles is present today.
I rest my case. The burden of proof lies with you, not me.
DHK

 

[Link]

DHK,

Where have you shown me from scripture? I ask for scripture that miracles have ceased and you point to experience, over and over again. You just did it again. I asked for scripture, which you never have provided, that the gift of miracles ceased. You again ask me to relate experiences.

I can tell you of a few miracles I have seen, but you redefine 'miracles.' A whole hospital has to get cleared out. 'Miracles' is used more broadly than that in the Bible. Jesus indicated that casting out demons is a miracle.

If the Bible does not teach that the gift of miracles has ceased, then you should believe the Spirit gives the gifts. If you aren't seeing it in your church experience, you should be asking 'What is wrong with us?' and NOT basing doctrine based on your experience. Be honest with yourself. Isn't the real reason you are a cessationist because of your experience, or lack thereof? If you had seen prophecies come to pass or seen great miracles done early in your Christian walk, would you have become a cessationist.

 

[DHK]

Link,
I have given you plenty of Biblical examples of the type of miracles that are not, and never will be repeated again. You repeatedly ignore them. You ignore the Scriptures. I ask you for evidence. You have none. I am not going to dig up more and more examples in th Bible anymore because you just ignore them.
Again the onus is on you.
Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead. You say such miracles are being done today, but fail to give any evidence. Until you do, why should I or anybody else believe you. Talk is cheap. I can tell you I am superman and fly over houses. But unless I demonstrate it for you why should you believe me? You shouldn't. And I have no reason to believe you, until you bring forth a burden of proof that the gift of miracles is still going on today. No more redefining of words. Bring forth the evidence. That is all that is needed. Evidence!
DHK