What Do You Think Would Happen If...?

[Tom Butler]

Some plagiarize sermons and preach them.

Some actually buy the sermons they plagiarize.

 

[EdSutton]

When Paul addressed the leaders of the churches in Acts 20 in Miletus, weren't they from house churches?

I must have missed this one. (Poor translation in the Bible I use, maybe?) Where is this found? I saw nothing about churches, or "leaders of the churches" in anything Paul said, at Miletus.

However, strangely, I did notice that there are multiple bishops/elders on one local church - namely the church of Ephesus. The word church is singular, here.

Ed

 

[Bob Alkire]

Nice job, and nice pulpit to fill, if you can even remotely come close to begin to "fill his shoes." :thumbs:

[Incidentally, this was, I believe, the first and only Pastorate Dr. Ironside ever served in -

I believe you are correct.

(Not too shabby a joint, for someone with an 8th grade education! :thumbsup,

I had a seminary professor who would use Dr. Ironside to show that one could get a great education without going to college and or seminary with just the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit.

and I also believe he literally "died with his boots on" and went home to be with the Lord, while on a preaching tour in New Zealand. I have heard, but cannot confirm, that he was actually preaching a message in NZ, when he was stricken.)]

Those definitely are really BIG shoes to even think of filling.

His body was was placed in the ground there as well. Many say lack of money to get him home, I don't know.

Now back on subject, When I was a child in the 40's and 50's most of the Baptist churches around me had bi- vocational pastors and many had seminary and or Bible college education. Some of the jobs that many a pastor had; milk delivery, bread delivery, truck driver, auto repair and sales to name a few. They were jobs with big turn over, so they were rather easy jobs to get. I believe bread and milk delivery was number one , started work around 3 or 4 AM and finished by 2 or 3 PM and that left a good amount of time for pastoral work.

There were many a church in the county with 10 to 25 folks on a Sunday morning and even service. They couldn't pay much. Many of these churches would grow to 75 to a 100 and then the young pastor was off to a larger church. Had a lot of pastors that went to Stetson preparing to go to seminary.

I would say in those type of churches and a pastor working less say at milk or bread delivery, the pastor had a better understanding of what the members went through. When a man works 10 to 12 hours a day or more there is only so many hours he has to help around the church. Most of the work on the building and grounds was done by the pastor and members. And I would say members spend more time together because of the physical work done around the building.

I know of a church west of me that is without a pastor (for about a year now) now and one of the members of the church was telling me about it. He said they are much closer than at anytime over the past 15 years because they spend time painting and other work of the church building and of other members and less time playing golf. They have one of their members filling the pulpit till they get a pastor. Many feel called till they see what the church can pay.

So I think there would be a lot of good on one hand and a lot of not so good on the other. If any church will try and follow the lead of the Holy Spirit and be a place of teaching, care and worship all would be well. I think we forget that God's appeal is for us to live the Christian life on the basis of His provision. If we try and live the Christian life by operation bootstraps, we will fail.

 

[gb93433]

I must have missed this one. (Poor translation in the Bible I use, maybe?) Where is this found? I saw nothing about churches, or "leaders of the churches" in anything Paul said, at Miletus.

However, strangely, I did notice that there are multiple bishops/elders on one local church - namely the church of Ephesus. The word church is singular, here.

Ed

The church in Ephesus was comprised of several smaller house churches to make up the local church. They were not like what we think of today as large assemblies in one large building. When the early church began they met in the homes of people.

Philemon 2 is probably a good example of a house church.

 

[gb93433]

If any church will try and follow the lead of the Holy Spirit and be a place of teaching, care and worship all would be well. I think we forget that God's appeal is for us to live the Christian life on the basis of His provision. If we try and live the Christian life by operation bootstraps, we will fail.

Your comment reminds me of the time a missionary told me about the average pastor in the country where he serves. He told me that the average pastor has been a Christian three years and pastoring for two. He also said that it is amazing how close they are doctrinally.

 

[gb93433]

There seems to be a lack of common sense used here.

In Acts 20 when Paul addresses the elders from the church of Ephesus in Miletus his God inspired message extends far more than geography. Scripture goes far deeper and beyond common sense and geography. All scripture is inspired by God and profiatble for. . ."

Scripture is loaded full of a lack of common sense. It makes no sense to think of God in the way He is. He is God, not common sense limited to our finite minds. Limiting God to common sense is very much what German Rationalism is and how it has penetrated the church.

1 Cor. 2:12-14, "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."

 

[ray Marshall]

Some churches may not be able to fully salary a pastor, however it is there biblical responsibility to give him something.



So it is not a matter of tradition or culture. It is a matter of biblical obedience. churches do not pay their pastors well. But at least they do pay them something. It is difficult for them at times to understand their responsibility as a church to financially support their pastor because the state pays the Catholic priests and many think that this should be normal for evangelical pastors as well... that is until the learn the biblical mandate to support their pastor.

Preaching the Gospel may not pay much, but the retirement benefits are out of this World!!

 

[Aaron]

What do you think would happen if all of the churches in America were without paid pastors?

Nothing would happen.

It would only mean that no church in America loved its pastor or understood the office and its demands.

 

[Jim1999]

It appears that many Baptist Churches practice that famous admonition: "Lord, you keep him humble, and we'll keep him poor."

Let's drop the name Baptist and add the name Plymouth Brethren. No fear of paying wages there.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[gb93433]

Nothing would happen. It would only mean that no church in America loved its pastor or understood the office and its demands.

Turn the tables on your coment and ask "How many would be pastoring if they were not paid?"

I have some friends whom I have known since college. They do ministry in a church that has never had a paid pastor. That church is involved in planting new churches, long and short term missions, and sending full time missionaries. The older are teaching the younger how to do ministry. There is not arrogance in that church. The main pastor teaches the younger men how to preach and do that kind of ministry. The younger men are mostly about 50 and they train those who are younger than them. There are several generations in training. The church runs at least 300 in attendance.

Look and see what happens as a church grows and can eventually afford a paid pastor. Look and see if the people work just as hard as when it was a new church plant. If everyone worked they would understand ministry much better than those who "pay" the pastor to do that work. Imagine how many churches would no longer be "program churches" if everyone had to work instead of going because of the programs?

Think about what Paul said in Acts 20:33-35, "I have coveted no one's silver or gold or clothes. "You yourselves know that these hands ministered to my own needs and to the men who were with me. "In everything I showed you that by working hard in this manner you must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He Himself said, `It is more blessed to give than to receive.' "

 

[gb93433]

It appears that many Baptist Churches practice that famous admonition: "Lord, you keep him humble, and we'll keep him poor."

Let's drop the name Baptist and add the name Plymouth Brethren. No fear of paying wages there.

Some of their churches in the states which have gotten larger now have paid pastors.

 

[Aaron]

Turn the tables on your coment and ask "How many would be pastoring if they were not paid?"

I have some friends whom I have known since college. They do ministry in a church that has never had a paid pastor. That church is involved in planting new churches, long and short term missions, and sending full time missionaries. The older are teaching the younger how to do ministry. There is not arrogance in that church. The main pastor teaches the younger men how to preach and do that kind of ministry. The younger men are mostly about 50 and they train those who are younger than them. There are several generations in training. The church runs at least 300 in attendance.

Look and see what happens as a church grows and can eventually afford a paid pastor. Look and see if the people work just as hard as when it was a new church plant. If everyone worked they would understand ministry much better than those who "pay" the pastor to do that work. Imagine how many churches would no longer be "program churches" if everyone had to work instead of going because of the programs?

Think about what Paul said in Acts 20:33-35, "I have coveted no one's silver or gold or clothes. "You yourselves know that these hands ministered to my own needs and to the men who were with me. "In everything I showed you that by working hard in this manner you must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He Himself said, `It is more blessed to give than to receive.' "

The question was, "What do you think would happen if all of the churches in America were without paid pastors?." I formed my answer from Scriptural principles, not the least of which is do not muzzle the ox that treads the corn. Ministers have the liberty to work without compensation if they so desire, but denying pastors their right to receive material compensation for their spiritual labors is not the answer to the problem of covetousness. There are many who simply covet the preeminence no matter the size or economic affluence of the group.

Still, how a church compensates it's ministers is a direct reflection of their love for them and their work.

 

[gb93433]

The question was, "What do you think would happen if all of the churches in America were without paid pastors?." I formed my answer from Scriptural principles, not the least of which is do not muzzle the ox that treads the corn. Ministers have the liberty to work without compensation if they so desire, but denying pastors their right to receive material compensation for their spiritual labors is not the answer to the problem of covetousness. There are many who simply covet the preeminence no matter the size or economic affluence of the group.

Still, how a church compensates it's ministers is a direct reflection of their love for them and their work.

Generally I agree with you. Often in large churches the congregation does not know how much the salaries are because there are hidden from the congregation by being mixed with other expenses being reported. The amount of money a church pays its pastor is not always reflective of its love for him. It can also be a way of telling him what they expect him to do and how they expect to be treated. There are times when they want growth in numbers so they pay the price to get a good orator. Recently we have seen a barrage of problems in large churches the past few years.

It is a well known fact that bivocational pastors have more contacts than full time pastors and their churches tend to do quite well because everyone works.