What does believe mean?

[canadyjd]

Luke 22:32
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Peter had faith, but his conversion did not occur until later. Many saved believers are not walking according to the spirit, but according to the flesh, just as Peter was when he denied the Lord.

If they are walking according to the flesh, they should have no assurance of their salvation.

It could be they are saved and backslidden. If that is the case, then God disciplines those He loves and God is more than able to bring them back into a right relationship.

It could be they were never saved in the first place. In that case, to give them assurance based on some prayer they have prayed, or some other experience they have had in the past is to give false assurance to someone bound for hell.

Our duty, as Christians, is to practice Church discipline on such people, in love and with the purpose of restoration of fellowship. Should that fail, we should treat them as unbelievers, just as Christ commanded.

peace to youraying:

 

[Lacy Evans]

Luk 10:25 And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
Luk 10:26 He said to him, "What is written in the Law? How do you read it?"
Luk 10:27 And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself."
Luk 10:28 And he said to him, "You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live."

This is a tough one, I'll admit. I believe the question "How do I inherit eternal life" is a question about the Kingdom that a jew would have been expecting. I really don't think this guy would have had any concept of "salvation" in an eternal sense.

But it is a difficult passage.

I reccommend this book. S S Craig explains it better than me.

http://www.schoettlepublishing.com/booksonline/craig/eternallife.htm

 

[Lacy Evans]

Luk 8:13 And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.
Luk 8:14 And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature.
Luk 8:15 As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience.
Luk 8:16 "No one after lighting a lamp covers it with a jar or puts it under a bed, but puts it on a stand, so that those who enter may see the light.
Luk 8:17 For nothing is hidden that will not be made manifest, nor is anything secret that will not be known and come to light.
Luk 8:18 Take care then how you hear, for to the one who has, more will be given, and from the one who has not, even what he thinks that he has will be taken away."

All about fruit.

 

[Lacy Evans]

1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
1Jo 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jo 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Amen and Amen!

 

[canadyjd]

First you must prove that "in the faith" means "saved", and not just "in the faith". He is speaking to those who are saved.(1 Cor. 1:2) So if it means "saved" then you can lose it if you don't constantly "examine yourself". Christ is the author, but I am the finisher?

I hope not.

Lacy Evans: I know you are not talking to me, but you are incorrect to state that Paul is addressing those who are saved (as if he knows who is and who isn't).

Paul is addressing those who have professed to be saved. He doesn't pronounce them to be saved or unsaved. He certainly hopes and prays that they are. He may even address them with the assumption that most of them are. But it is clear from his statements that he has his doubts about their salvation (at least some of them), based on their actions.

That is why he urges them to examine themselves to see if they are "in the faith" which is the same as "having Jesus in you" which is the same as having salvation. If they "fail the test", they certainly do not have salvation.

peace to youraying:

 

[Lacy Evans]

Mat 5:13 "You are the salt of the earth, but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled under people's feet.
Mat 5:14 "You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden.
Mat 5:15 Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house.
Mat 5:16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

Only a saved person has a light to "let shine". This is a verse about obedience, not salvation.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
Mat 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Mat 5:19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Look at verse 19. Whoever does this will what? You might have lower rank in the Kingdom.

Verse 20? You can miss the Kingdom!

This is REWARD not Salvation.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Mat 5:48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Perfect is mature. It is a process. If you are obedient, you'll get there. If not, you won't.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Eph 4:20 But that is not the way you learned Christ!--
Eph 4:21 assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus,
Eph 4:22 to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires,
Eph 4:23 and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds,
Eph 4:24 and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.
Eph 4:25 Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another.
Eph 4:26 Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger,
Eph 4:27 and give no opportunity to the devil.

Keep reading to 5:5. The Kingdom is the context. Not Salvation!

 

[EdSutton]

This is a tough one, I'll admit. I believe the question "How do I inherit eternal life" is a question about the Kingdom that a jew would have been expecting. I really don't think this guy would have had any concept of "salvation" in an eternal sense.

But it is a difficult passage.

I reccommend this book. S S Craig explains it better than me.

http://www.schoettlepublishing.com/booksonline/craig/eternallife.htm

Lacy, you might check out my own post #45 in the "Not saved if you don't understand the Bible" thread. I attempted to comment on that passage, there.

Ed

 

[Hope of Glory]

Great posts, Lacy! I fail to understand why so many confuse reward with spiritual salvation; why the Kingdom is confused with spiritual salvation; and why so many accept things that seem contradictory in views they hold.

 

[Lacy Evans]

It could be they were never saved in the first place. In that case, to give them assurance based on some prayer they have prayed, or some other experience they have had in the past is to give false assurance to someone bound for hell.

Assurance is not based on a prayer. The Bible never says to pray, or ask Jesus into your heart, etc. But assurance is likewise not based on holiness or fruit. Assurance is based on something "sure". The Finished work of Christ. His shed blood for me.

All obedience proves is that you are obedient. All holiness proves is that you are holy.

Lacy

 

[canadyjd]

Assurance is not based on a prayer. The Bible never says to pray, or ask Jesus into your heart, etc. But assurance is likewise not based on holiness or fruit. Assurance is based on something "sure". The Finished work of Christ. His shed blood for me.

All obedience proves is that you are obedient. All holiness proves is that you are holy.

Lacy

1 John 5:13 "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life."

I believe this verse is speaking of assurance of salvation. Do you agree?

peace to youraying:

 

[EdSutton]

"Faith" is the same as "believe", excepting that one is a noun, and the other is a verb, especially in Greek from "pisteuo" and hence "pistis".
I'd suggest the Bible gives a fairly clear definition of this -

1Now faith is the (A)assurance of things (B)hoped for, the conviction of (C)things not seen. (Heb. 11:1 - NASB)

Works for me!:thumbsup:

Ed

 

[Lacy Evans]

1 John 5:13 "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life."

I believe this verse is speaking of assurance of salvation. Do you agree?

peace to youraying:

No. I believe 1 John is written to the saved. If you are saved you know you are saved because you know in whom you have believed. There are two assurances.

1) Absolute Assurance that we are saved based upon the finished work, the shed blood of Christ. (Blood only)

2) Relative Assurance that we are walking holy based upon our outward holiness and obedience. (Water and Blood)

#1 is Salvation in eternity.
#2 is salvation from the chastening hand of our loving righteous Father.



1 John:
It is about maintaining fellowship with God. (1:6)
It is a warning to us (the little children) to not sin. (2:1)
It is about our walk and abiding in Christ (2:6,10)
So we don't abide in sin.(3:5-8)
So we can Love God, and have his love perfected in us, and know that we are dwelling in him (our walk).(4:8-13)
So we can be born (carried) by God, (5:1-4)



-Lacy

 

[EdSutton]

No. I believe 1 John is written to the saved. If you are saved you know you are saved because you know in whom you have believed. There are two assurances.

1) Absolute Assurance that we are saved based upon the finished work, the shed blood of Christ. (Blood only)

2) Relative Assurance that we are walking holy based upon our outward holiness and obedience. (Water and Blood)

#1 is Salvation in eternity.
#2 is salvation from the chastening hand of our loving righteous Father.



1 John:
It is about maintaining fellowship with God. (1:6)
It is a warning to us (the little children) to not sin. (2:1)
It is about our walk and abiding in Christ (2:6,10)
So we don't abide in sin.(3:5-8)
So we can Love God, and have his love perfected in us, and know that we are dwelling in him (our walk).(4:8-13)
So we can be born (carried) by God, (5:1-4)



-Lacy

Lacy, outta' curiosity, what is the model and year of the "Allis Gleaner" combine in your photo?

And BTW, you can teach in the Bible College that I head, anytime!!! :thumbsup: (Well, maybe except language- 'cause Language Cop says that to be carried is to be "borne", but that doesn't happen until after we are "born"! :laugh
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I wonder - Can I find one, or will we have to start that Bible Coll...?? :laugh: :wavey:

Ed

 

[FERRON BRIMSTONE]

"Believe" can have lots of different meanings depending on the

person using the term.

I believe my kids will behave at school, but I wouldn't bet my life

on it.

I believe my car will get me to work, but I leave a few minutes

early just in case.

I believe I will get to work safely, but I still wear my seatbelt.

When I make plans I believe I will succeed, but I try to have a

"plan B" or safety net.

I believe Jesus Christ saved me, and on this I have no doubt. I

do not need a 'plan B ' or safety net. I felt it when He came into

me, I felt it deep within me. He made a change in me that I

cannot explain and I am not sure that there are words that can

describe it. Not only would I die for Him, I would count it an

honor and priviledge to show Him the kind of love he has shown

me. When I see the word "believe" in John 3:16, this is what I

see.

 

[canadyjd]

No. I believe 1 John is written to the saved. If you are saved you know you are saved because you know in whom you have believed. There are two assurances......

What do the words "that you may know that you have eternal life" mean?

peace to youraying:

 

[Lacy Evans]

Lacy, outta' curiosity, what is the model and year of the "Allis Gleaner" combine in your photo?

I believe it is a "K". like this one:

http://images.google.com/imgres?img...gleaner+k&svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&safe=active&sa=G


It is about the same size as an "A" but newer. It was the little machine used more by small farmers when the "G" was the Gleaner flagship in the 70's.

I ran the bigger ones: ("L's, N's, and R's) but I remember Daddy having A's, C's and G's when I was little.

 

[James_Newman]

Our duty, as Christians, is to practice Church discipline on such people, in love and with the purpose of restoration of fellowship. Should that fail, we should treat them as unbelievers, just as Christ commanded.

2 Thessalonians 3:14-15
14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

Discipline is for believers. If a persons eternal salvation hinges upon obedience, then grace is no more grace.