What does "chosen" mean?

[OldRegular]

Look Brother Rippon, it says the elect were chosen in Christ from the foundation of the world, not chosen apart from Christ. If it rings true the way y'all hold it, then the elect aren't under condemnation at any point in their life, because they were in Christ years before they were even born. Christ was/is THE ELECT, and we who are saved, obtain the "adoption of sons", and are grafted into the Vine, grafted in Him.

I suggest you study Ephesians 2:1-10.

Ephesians 2:1-10, KJV

1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 2:1-10,NASV

1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2. in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,
7. in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9. not as a result of works, that no one should boast.
10. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

 

[convicted1]

I suggest you study Ephesians 2:1-10.

Ephesians 2:1-10, KJV

1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 2:1-10,NASV

1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2. in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,
7. in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9. not as a result of works, that no one should boast.
10. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

I agree with this, so what is your point?

Election starts/ends with Jesus. The Jews were in Christ(being God's chosen people, btw), and when they chose not to believe it was Jesus in the flesh, God cut them out of His Son. Read in Malachi how the Jews made the altar of the Lord contemtpable by offering the worst they had, and not their best. Over time, they were judiciously hardened by God through their disobedience.


They became blinded by God so that they could not see Him for Who He really was/is, and they could not hear, as to really understand what He was saying. This was so that they would offer up their Messiah, w/o them even realizing what they were doing was fulfilling the will of God. If they would have truly known that Jesus was'is the Lamb of God, they would not have slaughtered Him, and the OT scriptures wold not have been fulfilled.

 

[Skandelon]

I have not read through this entire thread so I apologize if I'm repeating something already said... as if repetition ever stopped a response here...

At the risk of seeing some repetitive arguments, I'd like to hear a non-cal explanation of what the verses mean that we have been "chosen" and "predestined" by God.

There are three aspects of God's election.

1) God chose a remnant from Israel for the noble purpose of being his messengers so that His purpose in election might stand. This means that God reserved a select few from Israel from being hardened in their rebellion for the purpose of taking the message of redemption to the rest of the world.

2) God chose to make a nation out of people who were not a nation. This means God chose to include the Gentiles (a non-nation) in his covenant of grace. He chose to graft them into his tree (ref. Rm 11).

3. God chose to save whosoever believes in Christ and repents of their sin, even if they are not a Jew.

Eph. 1: even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will.

Who is "US" in this verse? There are two possible answers...

1) US = preselected lost people that God chose to irresistibly call and make them become believers.

2) US = those who believe. The church.

How you answer that question determines how you interpret Paul's intent. He is either intending to say, "God predestines certain lost unbelievers to become believers and thus be adopted." Or he is saying, "God predestines all believers, whether Jew or Gentile, to be adopted." (BTW, we, as believers, are all awaiting our adoption as sons according to Paul in Romans 8)

Understand?

Romans 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.

Read on. Read versus 7 where he talks about "the rest" who are hardened and what may come of them. Verse 14 and following goes on to say that 'the rest' who have been hardened may be provoked to envy and saved. That they may 'leave their unbelief' and be 'grafted back in.' That they have not 'stumbled beyond recovery.' So, 'the rest' who are hardened can't be the 'non-elect' as Calvinists assume. "The rest" are those of Israel who remain in their rebellion while "the remnant" are those Jews who God set apart for the 'noble purpose' of taking the gospel of redemption to the rest of the world.

I have read some say that God chooses those who believe, but I don't see how that is any choice for God. (I recognize the opposite problem exists in calvinism: If God chooses, how is there any choice for man?)

I think it is an incomplete and overly simplistic perspective to suggest that God is choosing those who choose him. I don't believe that is the intent of the biblical authors. Instead, divine election involves the 3 aspects listed above and has been misapplied to support two different soteriological systems never intended by the text.

Again, not trying to be contentious, but I still don't understand the non-cal explaination of verses like this.

Not to be contentious myself, but few modern Calvinists do really understand how non-Calvinistic scholars view these texts which is why I think they opt for the Calvinistic option (this is as much the fault of non-Calvinists as anyone). Calvinism appears to be the only viable solution, but once one truly and objectively understands BOTH perspectives it does become more clear why many reject the Calvinistic option, IMO.

 

[12strings]

There are three aspects of God's election.

1) God chose a remnant from Israel for the noble purpose of being his messengers so that His purpose in election might stand. This means that God reserved a select few from Israel from being hardened in their rebellion for the purpose of taking the message of redemption to the rest of the world.

2) God chose to make a nation out of people who were not a nation. This means God chose to include the Gentiles (a non-nation) in his covenant of grace. He chose to graft them into his tree (ref. Rm 11).

3. God chose to save whosoever believes in Christ and repents of their sin, even if they are not a Jew.

-I understand you first two points, and do not disagree with them. The question is about the last one....

Who is "US" in this verse? There are two possible answers...

1) US = preselected lost people that God chose to irresistibly call and make them become believers.

2) US = those who believe. The church.

How you answer that question determines how you interpret Paul's intent. He is either intending to say, "God predestines certain lost unbelievers to become believers and thus be adopted." Or he is saying, "God predestines all believers, whether Jew or Gentile, to be adopted." (BTW, we, as believers, are all awaiting our adoption as sons according to Paul in Romans 8)

Understand?

a. I understand that this is the argument, but do not understand how you explain how God says he chose us before the foundation of the world, and yet the non-cals say he did not really do this.

b. Also, no Cal would disagree with either of these 2 options, they would equate them.

I think it is an incomplete and overly simplistic perspective to suggest that God is choosing those who choose him. I don't believe that is the intent of the biblical authors. Instead, divine election involves the 3 aspects listed above and has been misapplied to support two different soteriological systems never intended by the text.

Since there is no disagreement about your first 2 "aspects" of election, it is the third one that is in question here, and I don't see how what you are saying is different than the "overly simplistic" view you reject.

Not to be contentious myself, but few modern Calvinists do really understand how non-Calvinistic scholars view these texts which is why I think they opt for the Calvinistic option.

You are correct.

 

[OldRegular]

I agree with this, so what is your point?.

The point is:

Scripture tells us that the elect were

1. dead in trespasses and sins
2. walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3. were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Therefore, your assertion that " then the elect aren't under condemnation at any point in their life, because they were in Christ years before they were even born" is incorrect.

I fear that you are not rightly dividing the word.

 

[Skandelon]

-I understand you first two points, and do not disagree with them. The question is about the last one...."

The third point is: "God chose to save whosoever believes in Christ and repents of their sin, even if they are not a Jew."

I don't think either of us should disagree with this point, right? I mean, even Calvinists affirm that God has chosen to save anyone who believes, right? We may disagree regarding the means by which one comes to faith, but we shouldn't disagree on this point, should we?

I don't see how what you are saying is different than the "overly simplistic" view you reject.

It has to do with the intent of the biblical authors. I don't believe the authors were attempting to say that God looks down the corridor of time to see who will have faith and then He chooses to save them. Instead, the biblical authors (depending on the context) were addressing one of the three points I listed. The third point has nothing to do with God looking into the future and choosing to save those who believe, but instead is just a general declaration that God has chosen to save those who believe. I think my explanation on predestination explains this concept further.

a. I understand that this is the argument, but do not understand how you explain how God says he chose us before the foundation of the world, and yet the non-cals say he did not really do this.

This question leads me to believe you didn't understand my argument. Let me try to explain it another way.

Suppose there is a football coach who determines to physically condition his team before the season even begins...even prior to any of the team members joining the team. After the season starts and the team has assembled, the captain speaking of the coach states, "He predetermined for us to be in the best physical condition." Now, does that mean that the coach hand picked who would and would not join his team, or does it simply mean that the coach decided before hand what would become of everyone who was on his team? See the difference?

Hershel Hobbs uses the illustration of an airplane. The pilot may predetermine the destination of the airplane without predetermining who will and won't get on the plane. Likewise, God may predetermine what will become of those who are 'in Christ' without necessarily predetermining who will and won't believe in Christ. See what I mean now?

 

[12strings]

Skan,

Thanks for the further explanation. I believe I understand the difference between your view and the view of classical Arminians. I Think I have heard it explained similar to that before.

I see how that explanation make some sense, and how it would be appealing. I don't yet see why that explanation fits the texts in question better than the Calvinistic view.

 

[Skandelon]

Skan,

Thanks for the further explanation. I believe I understand the difference between your view and the view of classical Arminians. I Think I have heard it explained similar to that before.

Actually, I really don't think it is different from most classical Arminians. I just think laziness and simplicity has reduced their views to this "foresight faith" view in much the same way Calvinism is often reduced to the TULIP acrostic when in reality much more is involved.

I see how that explanation make some sense, and how it would be appealing. I don't yet see why that explanation fits the texts in question better than the Calvinistic view.

I can respect that but consider that the text NEVER actually says that God has predestined "US" to become believers. Instead it says that we have been predestined to be adopted.

Now, let me ask you something. Have you been adopted yet or is that something you've been predestined to because you are in Christ by faith?

Consider what Paul says in Romans 8, "23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

The text says that believers are predestined to be adopted, not that certain lost people are predestined to become believers. Calvinists, IMO, make the mistake of applying this passage to God's choice of individuals to become believers when all the text says is that God has chosen to adopt all who believe. You must read something more into the text to get Calvinism from it.