What does it mean?

[DaChaser1]

Who has a perfect heart? Do you have a perfect heart? Are all your intents perfect? I think your constant meaningless posts prove your intent is not perfect.



Even Christians are selfish to a degree. We want God to be pleased with us, isn't that selfish? How is that different from an unsaved person who tries to please God? Cornelius was not saved, but he prayed constantly and gave alms to the poor, and God recognized his works. That alone refutes you.



Where does the Bible say we are born dead in sin? Where does the Bible say we are born with a sin nature? You constantly say this, but you never provide scripture to support your statements. If you were required to show scripture to support what you say, you would have nothing.

You may disagree with me, but I almost always show scripture to support my view. You simply deny the scripture I provide and make unsupported statements.

The scriptures do not teach that man cannot do righteous works. I will provide scripture to show that.

Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

This verse is speaking of a lost man who dies "in his sin that he hath sinned". It says "all his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned".

Man can do righteous works, but if a man commits even one sin, then a man must pay for that sin, and the wages of sin is death. This is why the scriptures say "for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God". It is not that man cannot do good, but no man does good enough, all men come short of this. To earn salvation a man would have to be perfectly 100% righteous, never committing even one sin.

If you would study the scriptures instead of mindlessly parroting false doctrine you have been taught, you would discover this.

Joseph and Daniel were :rightous" men as compared towards other men, but as compare to God "not so much!"

ANY good work done while in the Flesh before salvation would seem impressive contrasted against others, lined up against Gods standard as in his law "not so much!"

 

[Darrell C]

Who has a perfect heart? Do you have a perfect heart? Are all your intents perfect? I think your constant meaningless posts prove your intent is not perfect.

When lookig at the issue of perfection, we have to separate between that which is afforded by God, because He is perfect, and the goal which all believers should strive for, and which was the goal of Paul not only for himself...but for the edification of the Church and his fellow believers.

Two entirely different issues, just as we see two entirely different issues concerning righteousness of man extended to both appearance as well as visible works. And this righteousness of man is not to be confused with the righteousness of God...which is what is done here, in my view.

Even Christians are selfish to a degree. We want God to be pleased with us, isn't that selfish?

No...that is commanded.


Colossians 1

King James Version (KJV)

4Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,

5For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

6Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:


It seems that their faith was validated by their love for all the saints. Even as Christ taught.

They had received the Gospel and the Gospel brought forth fruit among them.

It is at this time that they knew the grace of God...in truth.


9For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

10That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;


It seems to me that Paul was impressed by the quality of their love for one another.

This might seem irrelevant, but I will try to bring this full circle in an attempt to address what has been stated in this post.

Continued...

 

[DaChaser1]

Disregard, started new thread, deleted this one!

 

[Darrell C]

Originally Posted by Winman
Even Christians are selfish to a degree. We want God to be pleased with us, isn't that selfish?

In an attempt to keep the responses short and make them easier to respond to, I just wanted to add a few more passages to consider:


1 Thessalonians 4

1Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.

2For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.



Romans 12

1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.



Hebrews 13:16

King James Version (KJV)


16But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.




So, no...it is not selfishness, but should be the goal of every believer.

How is that different from an unsaved person who tries to please God?

What unsaved person tries to please God? How will God be pleased with an unsaved person except by obedience to the Gospel, that is...to be saved through Jesus Christ?

Cornelius was not saved, but he prayed constantly and gave alms to the poor, and God recognized his works.

Cornelius (before salvation) falls into a different category than the OP. I would place Cornelius in his pre-perfect condition as a saint worthy of Hebrews chapter 11 before salvation, and Hebrews ch. 12...after salvation, because he fell into the period when the Author and Finisher of our faith could be explained to him.

Consider the words of Jesus:


Matthew 11:11

King James Version (KJV)


11Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.


While John could declare, "Behold the lamb of God," he did not have an understanding of Christ which was given to Cornelius which led to his salvation, taking him from an Old Testament saint to a born again member of the body of Christ.

Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Or do we see it same way?

Perhaps you could start with your understanding of the Kingdom of God.

What does this phrase mean?

God bless.

 

[DaChaser1]

Perhaps you could start with your understanding of the Kingdom of God.

What does this phrase mean?

God bless.

Please continue on new thread, as posted by mistake on this OP!

 

[Darrell C]

That alone refutes you.

Not sure that I see that accomplished. The premise is faulty, which leads to a wrong conclusion.

Where does the Bible say we are born dead in sin? Where does the Bible say we are born with a sin nature?

Consider:


John 1

King James Version (KJV)

10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.


The world did not know Him.

11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Israel, as a nation, did not receive Him, despite the fact that He was sent to fulfill a specific ministry to her.



12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

But those that did receive Him were given the power, the ability of response, the legal right, if you will, to become, not remain, but to at that point, after He came unto them...to become the sons of God.


13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


Man is not a son of God through any means other than the will of God.

If therefore man cannot be born of God through natural birth, then it is obvious that the natural birth places men outside of the family of God. This is basic.



John 3:6

King James Version (KJV)


3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.



Matthew 16:17

King James Version (KJV)


17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.



1 Corinthians 15:50

King James Version (KJV)


50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


Now if scripture teaches that flesh and blood is a reference to the natural birth, and that flesh and blood cannot see nor inherit the Kingdom of God...what does that say about the natural, or first birth.



Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Please continue on new thread, as posted by mistake on this OP!

lol...okay. Only have a little time this evening, will check it out before I must leave, though.

Hopefully by then you will have posted your view as to what the Kingdom of God refers to.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

You constantly say this, but you never provide scripture to support your statements. If you were required to show scripture to support what you say, you would have nothing.

Well, if one of the brethren seek to advance in the knowledge of God, are we not commanded to help them, that the Church be edified? We can build each other up, or tear each other down...the choice is ours, and only one is pleasing to the Lord, I believe.

Originally Posted by Winman
Where does the Bible say we are born dead in sin? Where does the Bible say we are born with a sin nature?

Hebrews 2

King James Version (KJV)

9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


What was it that Christ died for? Was it not sin? Jesus' sympathy is found in that He was a partaker also of flesh and blood...not sin.

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;


What man is there that is not subject to death, the wage received for sin?


15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.


All their lifetime?

Subject to bondage to...?



Ephesians 2

1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;


No one has been able, that I have seen, to refute scripture's teaching that all men are dead and without life...from birth. To think that man has the life of God after reading scripture...just does not make sense. For this very reason Christ came.

Speculation that man dies spiritually after he is born cannot be shown in scripture either. For no matter the temporal righteousness which man might attain to, the basic fact is that these righteousnesses are as filthy rags.

This was pointed out by the brother that was so severely rebuked. He has a grasp of this basic scriptural truth which is apparently missed by some.


2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Now notice what Paul says next:


3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.


Among whom also we all had our conversation...there is no room for exceptions to the basic scriptural truth that man cannot attain to the righteousness of God. And for that very reason Christ came. What is the standard?

"Be ye perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect."

I believe Christ meant this as it is stated: the standard of righteousness is the perfection of God. And perfection is the direct result of salvation in Christ.


But, just as we distinguish between the righteousness of men which we see ascribed, such as the verse posted (unforunately) to show that the lost can be righteous, and the righteousness of God which is the standard and is only accomplished in the life of men when it is imputed, we also distinguish between perfection in regards to the temporal and perfection which is...eternal.

This is the most common reason some adhere to doctrines such as soul sleep and annihilation...because they do not distinguish between a temporal and eternal context.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

You may disagree with me, but I almost always show scripture to support my view.

That is how it should be.

You simply deny the scripture I provide and make unsupported statements.

So keep at it.

The scriptures do not teach that man cannot do righteous works. I will provide scripture to show that.

When we distinguish between the righteousness of God and the righteousnesses ascribed to men, we conclude that men can indeed do righteous works...from a human perspective.

But, the righteousness of God no man can attain to either before or after salvation in this world, for no man can attain th= o that righteous standard which is a result of not effort on God's part...but because it is His nature.

Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Hasn't this been covered already? It illustrates that there is a temporal standard to which men are held accountable to. This chapter does not teach that men can live according to the righteous standard of God.

This verse is speaking of a lost man who dies "in his sin that he hath sinned". It says "all his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned".

And where exactly does it say that in this chapter?

It does not say a "lost man's Righteousness will not be remembered." In view is...Israel. The temporal context is pointed out clearly in that we see reference to a following generation...upon the earth.

Consider:



Ezekial 38

23Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?


Can the wicked return from his ways anywhere but here? Shall we say that the life is eternal? We would have to if we are going to say the death is eternal. But it is not...it is temporal.

Man can do righteous works,

And not one of them will alleviate the penalty which all men outside of Christ will pay.

Only when the standard of righteous perfection which is found in God alone is imputed to man does he come into a condition of standing before God of being perfect.

It is not functional perfection, which is the goal of believers, but it is a standing before God which is due to the imputed righteousness which is not ours through our efforts.

but if a man commits even one sin, then a man must pay for that sin, and the wages of sin is death.

So if one is lucky enough to escape childhood without sinning, go through his youth without sinning, and live his life without sinning, it is suggested that he would not be guilty of sin. He would refute Paul himself who has stated plainly that all men are under a judgment of condemnation.

He could then, when he dies, push the Angels out of the way, approach the throne of God, and say..."Move over, there are two of us now."

This is why the scriptures say "for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God". It is not that man cannot do good, but no man does good enough, all men come short of this.

Exactly. And the question is...why not?

Simple scriptural concept: there is only One Who is good. Man does not have the nature of God, he is by nature a child of disobedience and wrath.

Would we say there was a possibility that a donkey might one day overcome his nature and become President of the United States (being serious here...lol)?

Neither would we say that man might somehow overcome his nature and perform the righteousness of God.

All have sinned, and we can be sure that all will continue to sin...outside of Christ.

Even when we are saved, the righteousness which places us in a favorable standing before God is borrowed. The righteous works we do after salvation are also the result of the Holy Spirit. Where in this can man take credit?

To earn salvation a man would have to be perfectly 100% righteous, never committing even one sin.

He would have to meet the standard Christ spoke: "Be ye perfect..."

But it is not in our nature, because we are not God, and therefore cannot attain.

If you would study the scriptures instead of mindlessly parroting false doctrine you have been taught, you would discover this.

That man is born outside of the family of God, condemned and having not the life of God is not false doctrine, but basic scriptural truth.

God bless.

 

[DaChaser1]

That is how it should be.



So keep at it.



When we distinguish between the righteousness of God and the righteousnesses ascribed to men, we conclude that men can indeed do righteous works...from a human perspective.

But, the righteousness of God no man can attain to either before or after salvation in this world, for no man can attain th= o that righteous standard which is a result of not effort on God's part...but because it is His nature.





Hasn't this been covered already? It illustrates that there is a temporal standard to which men are held accountable to. This chapter does not teach that men can live according to the righteous standard of God.





And where exactly does it say that in this chapter?

It does not say a "lost man's Righteousness will not be remembered." In view is...Israel. The temporal context is pointed out clearly in that we see reference to a following generation...upon the earth.

Consider:



Ezekial 38

23Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?


Can the wicked return from his ways anywhere but here? Shall we say that the life is eternal? We would have to if we are going to say the death is eternal. But it is not...it is temporal.





And not one of them will alleviate the penalty which all men outside of Christ will pay.

Only when the standard of righteous perfection which is found in God alone is imputed to man does he come into a condition of standing before God of being perfect.

It is not functional perfection, which is the goal of believers, but it is a standing before God which is due to the imputed righteousness which is not ours through our efforts.



So if one is lucky enough to escape childhood without sinning, go through his youth without sinning, and live his life without sinning, it is suggested that he would not be guilty of sin. He would refute Paul himself who has stated plainly that all men are under a judgment of condemnation.

He could then, when he dies, push the Angels out of the way, approach the throne of God, and say..."Move over, there are two of us now."



Exactly. And the question is...why not?

Simple scriptural concept: there is only One Who is good. Man does not have the nature of God, he is by nature a child of disobedience and wrath.

Would we say there was a possibility that a donkey might one day overcome his nature and become President of the United States (being serious here...lol)?

Neither would we say that man might somehow overcome his nature and perform the righteousness of God.

All have sinned, and we can be sure that all will continue to sin...outside of Christ.

Even when we are saved, the righteousness which places us in a favorable standing before God is borrowed. The righteous works we do after salvation are also the result of the Holy Spirit. Where in this can man take credit?



He would have to meet the standard Christ spoke: "Be ye perfect..."

But it is not in our nature, because we are not God, and therefore cannot attain.



That man is born outside of the family of God, condemned and having not the life of God is not false doctrine, but basic scriptural truth.

God bless.

truth is that even IF one kept the law of God perfectly until death, still stands codemned before God, as we would still be sinners by birth, if not by actual choice!

 

[Winman]

When we distinguish between the righteousness of God and the righteousnesses ascribed to men, we conclude that men can indeed do righteous works...from a human perspective.

It was not man speaking in the verse I quoted, but God. God is the one ascribing righteous works to man.

Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Who spoke this verse, man or God? And this verse is speaking of a lost man, a man who dies "in his sin that he hath sinned".

And again, this verse shows man turning away from God. The scriptures always describe man as first righteous, but then going astray, or turning from God to sin.

Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

1 Pet 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

The scriptures do not show man born a sinner, the scriptures say God made man upright, but then men go astray, they turn from God, they go out of the way, they become unprofitable.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

If people would not mindlessly accept false doctrine and read the scriptures for what they truly say they would easily see this.

 

[agedman]

It was not man speaking in the verse I quoted, but God. God is the one ascribing righteous works to man.

Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Who spoke this verse, man or God? And this verse is speaking of a lost man, a man who dies "in his sin that he hath sinned".

And again, this verse shows man turning away from God. The scriptures always describe man as first righteous, but then going astray, or turning from God to sin.

Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

1 Pet 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

The scriptures do not show man born a sinner, the scriptures say God made man upright, but then men go astray, they turn from God, they go out of the way, they become unprofitable.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

If people would not mindlessly accept false doctrine and read the scriptures for what they truly say they would easily see this.

I once heard the Amish use Ecc 7:29 as a reason to not seek modernization.

More to the point. Your post is very good, but I wonder about the conclusion you bring. In every case you state, it is true that man turns away from God.

But what is the reason? Is it not because that is the fallen nature of man? The sin nature does not fellowship with God and in fact the scriptures teach that it hates God.

Although certainly the Scripture do state what you posted, the application may be missing a key element of the very fallen nature to which all are born.

Therefore, fallen man does turn. Fallen man will always turn. It isn't that man can do something good, for man was created with similar characteristics as God (intellect, problem solving, creative, inventive...).

It is how God views the good and no matter the creative work of fallen man it has within itself the seed of decay. The concept and building may be most excellent, yet the seed of decay resides in the first turn of the shovel.


Even a toddler gets quiet and secretive when dirtying the diaper. They don't know why it is wrong, but they sense it is wrong. There is not a righteous act that a person can do that isn't stinky before God.

With God there is no seed of decay, but the seed of life.

 

[Winman]

But what is the reason? Is it not because that is the fallen nature of man? The sin nature does not fellowship with God and in fact the scriptures teach that it hates God.

Did Satan have a fallen nature when he sinned? No, the scriptures say he was perfect.

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Satan was perfect when he was created, yet he sinned.

Did Adam and Eve have a sin nature when they were created? No.

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Adam and Eve (and the angels who also rebelled with Satan) were VERY good, yet they sinned.

So, this is where you are easily shown to go off track from the beginning, you believe that when a person sins it is proof they had a sin nature, when the scriptures clearly show a sin nature is not required to sin. All you need to sin is a free will and lack of faith.

Although certainly the Scripture do state what you posted, the application may be missing a key element of the very fallen nature to which all are born.

Therefore, fallen man does turn. Fallen man will always turn. It isn't that man can do something good, for man was created with similar characteristics as God (intellect, problem solving, creative, inventive...).

No, he is not fallen until he turns. You are not a lost sheep until you go astray. Man goes "out" of the way, showing he was first "in" the way. You can not go "out" of your house unless you were first "in" your house. The prodigal son was with his father, left and sinned. When he repented and returned, his father twice said he was alive AGAIN. You cannot be alive AGAIN if you were born dead as many falsely teach.

But at least you admit that what I posted is what the scriptures say. And it IS what the scriptures say.

1 Pet 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Once again, scripture describes us as sheep that have gone astray and become lost. You cannot go astray from the flock unless you were originally in the flock and not lost. This is confirmed when Peter says we are now RETURNED to the Shepherd and Bishop of our souls, Jesus.

You cannot return to some place you have never been. I cannot return to Utah, because I have never been to Utah. I can return to California, because I have been to California.

All these scriptures are simple, straightforward, and plain as day. The reason men do not see and understand them is because their minds have been conditioned by false doctrine. They read these verses and do not even notice the words that clearly show man does not start out lost, but becomes lost later when he willfully sins against God.

But once you know and see, there is no excuse to continue to support obvious false doctrine.

 

[convicted1]

Did Satan have a fallen nature when he sinned? No, the scriptures say he was perfect.

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Satan was perfect when he was created, yet he sinned.

Did Adam and Eve have a sin nature when they were created? No.

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Adam and Eve (and the angels who also rebelled with Satan) were VERY good, yet they sinned.

So, this is where you are easily shown to go off track from the beginning, you believe that when a person sins it is proof they had a sin nature, when the scriptures clearly show a sin nature is not required to sin. All you need to sin is a free will and lack of faith.


No, he is not fallen until he turns. You are not a lost sheep until you go astray. Man goes "out" of the way, showing he was first "in" the way. You can not go "out" of your house unless you were first "in" your house. The prodigal son was with his father, left and sinned. When he repented and returned, his father twice said he was alive AGAIN. You cannot be alive AGAIN if you were born dead as many falsely teach.

But at least you admit that what I posted is what the scriptures say. And it IS what the scriptures say.

1 Pet 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Once again, scripture describes us as sheep that have gone astray and become lost. You cannot go astray from the flock unless you were originally in the flock and not lost. This is confirmed when Peter says we are now RETURNED to the Shepherd and Bishop of our souls, Jesus.

You cannot return to some place you have never been. I cannot return to Utah, because I have never been to Utah. I can return to California, because I have been to California.

All these scriptures are simple, straightforward, and plain as day. The reason men do not see and understand them is because their minds have been conditioned by false doctrine. They read these verses and do not even notice the words that clearly show man does not start out lost, but becomes lost later when he willfully sins against God.

But once you know and see, there is no excuse to continue to support obvious false doctrine.

Brother, you need to stop all this incessant "proof texting". You're proving you're case too much!!! :laugh: :love2: :thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Winman]

Brother, you need to stop all this incessant "proof texting". You're proving you're case too much!!! :laugh: :love2: :thumbs::thumbs:

Willis, it is simply what the scriptures say. And it is not one or two verses, it is many, many verses.

There is not one verse that says man is born dead in sins, yet there is a verse that directly says God made man upright, but folks deny it because they would rather believe Augustine and not the word of God.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

We were made by God. We receive our body from our parents, but our soul and spirit comes from God and is not corrupt originally, but upright.

Mal 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

We are not born children of wrath, children of the devil. When we obey the devil we become children of the devil, just as when we obey the gospel and trust Christ we become the children of God.

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

We are not born again so we can believe, we first receive Jesus and believe on him, and THEN we are given the power TO BECOME the sons of God. We are alive AGAIN. We are born AGAIN.

If folks would simply read the scriptures and not mindlessly accept the false doctrine of Augustine, it is very easy to see.

 

[Iconoclast]

Willis, it is simply what the scriptures say. And it is not one or two verses, it is many, many verses.

There is not one verse that says man is born dead in sins, yet there is a verse that directly says God made man upright, but folks deny it because they would rather believe Augustine and not the word of God.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

We were made by God. We receive our body from our parents, but our soul and spirit comes from God and is not corrupt originally, but upright.

Mal 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

We are not born children of wrath, children of the devil. When we obey the devil we become children of the devil, just as when we obey the gospel and trust Christ we become the children of God.

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

We are not born again so we can believe, we first receive Jesus and believe on him, and THEN we are given the power TO BECOME the sons of God. We are alive AGAIN. We are born AGAIN.

If folks would simply read the scriptures and not mindlessly accept the false doctrine of Augustine, it is very easy to see.

Good verses....you missed the meaning of everyone of them!.....not even close:BangHead::BangHead::BangHead:

 

[convicted1]

Willis, it is simply what the scriptures say. And it is not one or two verses, it is many, many verses.

There is not one verse that says man is born dead in sins, yet there is a verse that directly says God made man upright, but folks deny it because they would rather believe Augustine and not the word of God.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

We were made by God. We receive our body from our parents, but our soul and spirit comes from God and is not corrupt originally, but upright.

Mal 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

We are not born children of wrath, children of the devil. When we obey the devil we become children of the devil, just as when we obey the gospel and trust Christ we become the children of God.

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

We are not born again so we can believe, we first receive Jesus and believe on him, and THEN we are given the power TO BECOME the sons of God. We are alive AGAIN. We are born AGAIN.

If folks would simply read the scriptures and not mindlessly accept the false doctrine of Augustine, it is very easy to see.

Very well stated!! :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

Just because we don't agree with the likes of Augustine, Calvin, Luther, Pink, Beza, Bunyan, et. al., doesn't mean we don't have this right. Of course, our Calvinist Brethern will state that we are in grave error, though.

 

[DaChaser1]

Did Satan have a fallen nature when he sinned? No, the scriptures say he was perfect.

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Satan was perfect when he was created, yet he sinned.

Did Adam and Eve have a sin nature when they were created? No.

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Adam and Eve (and the angels who also rebelled with Satan) were VERY good, yet they sinned.

So, this is where you are easily shown to go off track from the beginning, you believe that when a person sins it is proof they had a sin nature, when the scriptures clearly show a sin nature is not required to sin. All you need to sin is a free will and lack of faith.



No, he is not fallen until he turns. You are not a lost sheep until you go astray. Man goes "out" of the way, showing he was first "in" the way. You can not go "out" of your house unless you were first "in" your house. The prodigal son was with his father, left and sinned. When he repented and returned, his father twice said he was alive AGAIN. You cannot be alive AGAIN if you were born dead as many falsely teach.

But at least you admit that what I posted is what the scriptures say. And it IS what the scriptures say.

1 Pet 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Once again, scripture describes us as sheep that have gone astray and become lost. You cannot go astray from the flock unless you were originally in the flock and not lost. This is confirmed when Peter says we are now RETURNED to the Shepherd and Bishop of our souls, Jesus.

You cannot return to some place you have never been. I cannot return to Utah, because I have never been to Utah. I can return to California, because I have been to California.

All these scriptures are simple, straightforward, and plain as day. The reason men do not see and understand them is because their minds have been conditioned by false doctrine. They read these verses and do not even notice the words that clearly show man does not start out lost, but becomes lost later when he willfully sins against God.

But once you know and see, there is no excuse to continue to support obvious false doctrine.

Problem most arms/non cals have in this area is the theology they use of man having a real free will and ability to actually chose for God works ONLY for Adam and Eve, as they were created without sin nature, real free will, alas, NONE of us have that means since the fall!

 

[DaChaser1]

Very well stated!! :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

Just because we don't agree with the likes of Augustine, Calvin, Luther, Pink, Beza, Bunyan, et. al., doesn't mean we don't have this right. Of course, our Calvinist Brethern will state that we are in grave error, though.

god has to wake the dead up first, in order to be able to respond!

The Election of God causes faith in Christ, NOT my faith causes then God to make me elect!

he first chose me, than I can and will choose Him!