What does it mean?

[convicted1]

god has to wake the dead up first, in order to be able to respond!

The Election of God causes faith in Christ, NOT my faith causes then God to make me elect!

he first chose me, than I can and will choose Him!

Aaaah yes, the pre-regeneration salvation theology. I guess Jesus was just "joshing" when He said that they that hear shall live. Or, they would not come to Him so that they might live. Gotcha....

 

[DaChaser1]

Aaaah yes, the pre-regeneration salvation theology. I guess Jesus was just "joshing" when He said that they that hear shall live. Or, they would not come to Him so that they might live. Gotcha....

Not quite...
Hold that its like part of same process, same timing involved...

the HS internally opens up my mind/heart to be able to respond, and externally, the Gospel produces results of saving Elect of God!

 

[freeatlast]

god has to wake the dead up first, in order to be able to respond!

The Election of God causes faith in Christ, NOT my faith causes then God to make me elect!

he first chose me, than I can and will choose Him!

These were chosen but they refused.
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!

 

[convicted1]

These were chosen but they refused.
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!

What? You mean you can't read into the text that they weren't really able to come to Jesus, but Jesus was rebuking them for rejecting Him, eventhough they had no other choice but to reject Him?


FTR, I didn't get this from that verse, either.

 

[Winman]

Problem most arms/non cals have in this area is the theology they use of man having a real free will and ability to actually chose for God works ONLY for Adam and Eve, as they were created without sin nature, real free will, alas, NONE of us have that means since the fall!

 

[Iconoclast]

Very well stated!! :thumbs

Just because we don't agree with the likes of Augustine, Calvin, Luther, Pink, Beza, Bunyan, et. al., doesn't mean we don't have this right. Of course, our Calvinist Brethern will state that we are in grave error, though.

Yes Willis...we will say this is grave error because each one is wrong

this is tragic;

We are not born children of wrath, children of the devil. When we obey the devil we become children of the devil, just as when we obey the gospel and trust Christ we become the children of God.

 

[Darrell C]

It was not man speaking in the verse I quoted, but God. God is the one ascribing righteous works to man.

Now consider carefully the words chosen here:

God is the one ascribing righteous works to man.

This is the first sep toward gaining an understanding of the difference between righteous versus unrighteous works...and the rigghteousness of God.

It is not comprehended that when men say "men are good, they are righteous," they are ascribing to man something that is not a possibility except from the perspective of...other men.

God alone is righteous, therefore we can say His works are righteous. Man, on the other hand, is incapable of that righteousness...no matter how "good" his fellows think him to be.

Consider:



Ezekiel 18
King James Version (KJV)


5But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,

6And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,

7And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;

8He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,

9Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.


The promise is not, as is supposed and implied in the response...that of eternal life.

Let's look at some in scripture that committed the transgressions mentioned above:


6And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,

Is David eternally judged?

The fact is that had David not been the King, he probably would have been put to death, as the law required.


6And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,

Solomon?


But let's go on:



Ezekiel 18

King James Version (KJV)


10If he beget a son that is a robber, a shedder of blood, and that doeth the like to any one of these things,

11And that doeth not any of those duties, but even hath eaten upon the mountains, and defiled his neighbour's wife,

12Hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge, and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination,

13Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.


When will he die? Why will he die?

Because he is breaking the law of God.

His blood shall be upon him.

Clearly dealing with temporal action and judgment.


14Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father's sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like,

15That hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour's wife,

16Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment,

17That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.

18As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.


Shall die in his iniquity.

Meaning, he will die in the midst of his sin.



19Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.


He shall live...when?

The question is asked "Should not the son of the father also die?"

The answer is no, he shall not die. Do we suppose that men have power over the fate of men...spiritually?


20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.


Shall be upon him...when?

Because "soul" here is viewed as the immaterial portion of man the temporal context is overlooked in favor of a view that can be spiritualized in sermons.


21But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.


When?

Okay, when is it that the wicked are afforded the time to turn from their sin?

After death? So if they turn from sin while they yet live so that they because of this continue to live...what is the Lord saying here?


22All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

His sins are not remembered. Sounds suspiciously like the promise of God to others that are clearly alive.


Jeremiah 31:34

King James Version (KJV)


34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.



23Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?


When will the wicked have opportunity to turn from ways?

So again, if he continues to live when he repents what is the death averted?


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Again, refraining from these sins does not mean that eternal life is gained.

That is one point, if considered, will show the misapplication of this verse by those that wish to view man as good, and to promote salvation through works.

This was not true under the First Covenant and it is clearly evident under the New.

Pharisees believed this to be true. They still do.

Who spoke this verse, man or God? And this verse is speaking of a lost man, a man who dies "in his sin that he hath sinned".

There is no debate as to Who is speaking, the debate is over ...what He is saying.

lol

This man is called a "lost man." Was David a "lost man" when he committed adultery and murder in violation of the law which was doubly grievous in that he was the one who above all should have exemplified the law as King?

Just as he exemplified faith as a young man?

And again, this verse shows man turning away from God. The scriptures always describe man as first righteous, but then going astray, or turning from God to sin.

Man is described as first righteous?

What, may I ask, made Cain "first righteous?"

And was that righteousness to be compared with true rightoeousness which God alone possesses...because it is Who God is by nature?

This places man and God on an even plane, and the sum total of scripture denies that in no uncertain terms.

Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

And if there is none that doeth good...how can they be said to have first been righteous?

That is why they (we) are ALL gone out of the way.

Does scripture teach that we are profitable, then unprofitable, then by righteous works we are then in this life considered...profitable?


Luke 17:10

King James Version (KJV)


10So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.


I trow not...lol.

Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

The focus on man "going astray" and turning "every one to his own way" overlooks that the focus should be upon ALL.

EVERY ONE.

Now in Ezekial 18 if a man turns from his wicked ways...his sin will not be remembered. Right? Remember that?

So how is it that man's iniquity is laid upon the Lord?

What iniquity is remembered here?


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

1 Pet 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

So these had been previously saved, born again believers?

See the problem there?

Lets see what else Peter has to say about these who are being said to have "returned" in a context of " being restored to a previous condition," and see if this is actually what peter is teaching:


1 Peter 2

King James Version (KJV)

9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

10Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.


Whether we try to make them return as Israel or just men in general, they are now something they were not before.

The scriptures do not show man born a sinner, the scriptures say God made man upright, but then men go astray, they turn from God, they go out of the way, they become unprofitable.

We do not have to have man "born as a sinner," we need only recognize that he is born condemned because of sin which he cannot avoid, and born apart from the righteousness of God, which he cannot attain to.

I just cannot see how Romans 5 is so difficult to understand.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Where is Paul Harvey when the Apostle Paul will not be heard...lol.

Here is the rest of the story:

Ecclesiastes 7

King James Version (KJV)

1A good name is better than precious ointment; and the day of death than the day of one's birth.

Seems temporal righteousness is earned, not given at birth.

And I would just ask that the temporal context at least be considered.


15All things have I seen in the days of my vanity: there is a just man that perisheth in his righteousness, and there is a wicked man that prolongeth his life in his wickedness.


Just as in Ezekial 18, we see that the reference is to life and death which is physical.


17Be not over much wicked, neither be thou foolish: why shouldest thou die before thy time?


Would we take this to mean "Why should your 'soul' die before it's time?" No, we see that sin will bring physical death.


20For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.


And why is that?


29Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.


When did God "make man upright?" Can it be shown that this was at birth, in contradiction to the many statements of God to the contrary?



Genesis 6

King James Version (KJV)

5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.



1 Kings 8:46

King James Version (KJV)


46If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;




2 Chronicles 6:36

King James Version (KJV)

36If they sin against thee, (for there is no man which sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them over before their enemies, and they carry them away captives unto a land far off or near;



Proverbs 20:9

King James Version (KJV)

9Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?


No, we can never, due to our efforts, say this of ourselves, but God can.

If people would not mindlessly accept false doctrine and read the scriptures for what they truly say they would easily see this.

Absolutely agree.