What does Reformed really mean?

[Reformed]

Reformed is a word that Satan has interjected in the Christian community to bring about bickering and confusion.

That is a crude and inaccurate statement. Will you say the same about Dispensationalism or Fundamentalism, or are you going to pick and choose which words you consider to be divisive? Bickering and confusion have been part of the New Testament church since its inception (c.f. Rom. 16:17). The Reformation served a valuable purpose in pulling true biblical Christianity out of Romanism.

 

[Reformed]

After that, as I said, the power of the monarchy was curtailed and religious freedoms steadily improved, though not separation of Church and State, which we still don't have entirely in Britain.

For the record, separation of church and state is a canard. It does not exist in the United States Constitution. It is attributed to a statement made by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association. The 1st Amendment of the United States Consitution restricts the role of the federal government in matters of religion. The federal government cannot restrict the practice of religion nor establish a state religion. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." The 1st Amendment does not prevent religion from involving itself in social or political affairs.

 

[Yeshua1]

1689 Federalism is rather new to the covenant theology scene. It is an attempt to present a covenant theology that does not share the same framework as Westminster covenant theology. Some of its notable proponents (Rich Barcellos, James Renihan, and Pascal Denault) present 1689 Federalism as existing in form as early as the 17th century. I think their efforts are beneficial. Covenantal Baptists are better served by understanding their unique distinctives as compared to Westminsterism. Baptists are famous for being all over the map when it comes to theology. The real test for 1689 Federalism is whether it is biblical. It is an attempt to establish a covenantal Baptist identity for the sake of doing so or because it is a reflection of what the Bible teaches? While it is still a work in progress, I like what I have seen to this point.

This is a valid attempt to get to just what the New Covenant really means, and how it operates. "Just how new was the New?" Sometimes i get the feeling that those Reformed bethren in Non Baptist churches hold to CT and infant baptism so hard they filter the scriptures through that lens at times, to get to their final position.

 

[Yeshua1]

That is a crude and inaccurate statement. Will you say the same about Dispensationalism or Fundamentalism, or are you going to pick and choose which words you consider to be divisive? Bickering and confusion have been part of the New Testament church since its inception (c.f. Rom. 16:17). The Reformation served a valuable purpose in pulling true biblical Christianity out of Romanism.

I would see modern day Charasmatic chaos and KJVO much more deserving that designation!

 

[Wesley Briggman]

That is a crude and inaccurate statement. Will you say the same about Dispensationalism or Fundamentalism, or are you going to pick and choose which words you consider to be divisive? Bickering and confusion have been part of the New Testament church since its inception (c.f. Rom. 16:17). The Reformation served a valuable purpose in pulling true biblical Christianity out of Romanism.

Thanks for your reply. I stand by my statement. As you pointed out: "Bickering and confusion have been part of the New Testament church since its inception. Rom 16:17 KJV Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Grace is not imparted through infant baptism as Lutheran's teach. Women are not to be ordained as some reformed denominations practice. Many other non-Biblical teachings could be listed.

Your reference to Rom 16:17 clearly teaches that confusion is not endorsed by God. Therefore, it is a tool of Satan.

1Co 14:33 KJV For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Hopefully, this will help us come to a mutual understanding and be more enlightened. Have a good day.

 

[Mikey]

1689 Federalism is rather new to the covenant theology scene. It is an attempt to present a covenant theology that does not share the same framework as Westminster covenant theology. Some of its notable proponents (Rich Barcellos, James Renihan, and Pascal Denault) present 1689 Federalism as existing in form as early as the 17th century. I think their efforts are beneficial. Covenantal Baptists are better served by understanding their unique distinctives as compared to Westminsterism. Baptists are famous for being all over the map when it comes to theology. The real test for 1689 Federalism is whether it is biblical. It is an attempt to establish a covenantal Baptist identity for the sake of doing so or because it is a reflection of what the Bible teaches? While it is still a work in progress, I like what I have seen to this point.

Indeed. I found the book by Pascal Denault 'The Distinctiveness of Baptist Covenant Theology' extremely helpful and would recommend it to anyone who is interested to know more about Baptist CT.

 

[Yeshua1]

Indeed. I found the book by Pascal Denault 'The Distinctiveness of Baptist Covenant Theology' extremely helpful and would recommend it to anyone who is interested to know more about Baptist CT.

Well, our Non Baptist reformed bethren have had much longer tim eto hammer out their theology than we have had as RB, as I think even the 1689 was a quick put together to basically establish a distinctive Baptist flavor!

 

[Reformed]

Grace is not imparted through infant baptism as Lutheran's teach.

Lutherans are not Reformed. Do your research.

Women are not to be ordained as some reformed denominations practice.

So, now the measure of what qualifies as a tool of Satan are errors that a church or a denomination may have? Baptist churches that have females pastors (like the American Baptist Churches USA) are included in that? Since they are a Baptist sect, can we rightly include the word "Baptist" as a tool of Satan?

Many other non-Biblical teachings could be listed.

Yes. I am sure they could be. I can say that Arminianism, Pelagianism, Dispensationalism, KJV-only et. al are all tools of Satan. Depending on who I say that to they may bite at it harder than a walleye on Big Saint Germain Lake.

Hopefully, this will help us come to a mutual understanding and be more enlightened.

Actually, no. Wesley, I think you are a learned man, so I am not going to insult you. However, if you understand church history you know that the Reformation was a starting point, not a destination. "ecclesia reformata, semper reformanda" means "the church reformed, always reforming" or as it is commonly referred to today as "semper reformanda" - always reforming. The Reformation began a chain of events that did not culminate with Luther's 95 theses nailed to the wall at Wittenberg castle church. What Luther did was just an opening salvo. Indeed, Lutheran's do not consider themselves Reformed. Yes. the Big "R" Reformed prospered first in Geneva and then in the Netherlands. It did include paedobaptism (infant baptism). As a Baptist, I believe paedobaptism to be an error. But the Reformation had ripples, much like a rock does when thrown in a pond. Many movements and denominations came out of the Reformation. I am not a Landmarkist, so I believe Baptists are one of those ripples from the Reformation that manifested itself when John Smyth and Thomas Hewlys began the first named Baptist assembly.

Theological tribalism has a way of forcing us into camps, which then force us to view all other camps as enemies. I agree that theological differences are sometimes best settled by separation (different denominations), but we risk doing great harm to the cause of Christ by looking at everyone with whom we disagree through a darkened lens. I strongly disagree with Big "R" Reformed theology in the area of baptism and church polity. However, I am thankful that many in the Reformed church continue to faithfully proclaim the gospel. We fight the same battle. Our differences are such that I worship under a different theological tradition, but I am not going to accuse them of being tools of Satan.

Good day, sir.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Lutherans are not Reformed. Do your research.

OK, I was/am wrong in designating Lutherans as being reformed. Thank you for kindly pointing this out. It is my understanding the Lutheran doctrine teaches that infant baptism imparts grace to the child. Do you agree with their position?

 

[Reformed]

OK, I was/am wrong in designating Lutherans as being reformed. Thank you for kindly pointing this out. It is my understanding the Lutheran doctrine teaches that infant baptism imparts grace to the child. Do you agree with their position?

No. I am not a Lutheran. I am in agreement with what the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith has to say about Baptism:

"Baptism is an ordinance of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ, to be unto the party baptized, a sign of his fellowship with him, in his death and resurrection; of his being engrafted into him; of remission of sins; and of giving up into God, through Jesus Christ, to live and walk in newness of life."

The only grace that accompanies baptism is the strengthening of our faith as we contemplate what baptism represents, but I do not believe that there is any internal grace that accompanies the ordinance.

 

[SovereignGrace]

No. I am not a Lutheran. I am in agreement with what the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith has to say about Baptism:

"Baptism is an ordinance of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ, to be unto the party baptized, a sign of his fellowship with him, in his death and resurrection; of his being engrafted into him; of remission of sins; and of giving up into God, through Jesus Christ, to live and walk in newness of life."

The only grace that accompanies baptism is the strengthening of our faith as we contemplate what baptism represents, but I do not believe that there is any internal grace that accompanies the ordinance.

I was thinking there are some Lutherans who are reformed?

 

[Jerome]

Reformed | Definition of Reformed by Webster's Online Dictionary

Reformed

specifically, of the whole body of Protestant churches originating in the Reformation

Also, in a more restricted sense, of those who separated from Luther on the doctrine of consubstantiation, etc., and carried the Reformation, as they claimed, to a higher point. The Protestant churches founded by them in Switzerland, France, Holland, and part of Germany, were called the Reformed churches.

 

[Reformed]

I was thinking there are some Lutherans who are reformed?

Lutheranism as a theological system is contrary to Reformed theology. There may be individual Lutherans who consider themselves Reformed, but I am personally unaware of any.

 

[Covenanter]

Was Luther reformed?!?
Was Calvin a Calvinist?!?

I am unaware of any British churches calling themselves Lutheran, though I understand the church of England is considered Lutheran.

The Reformation celebrations a year ago had all the reformed and Baptist churches celebrating, and very few of us speaking up for independent baptists.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

There is a tiny number of Lutheran churches in Britain. My Pastor's wife was brought up in one in Cardiff and officially expelled from it when she underwent Believer's Baptism.

 

[Covenanter]

There is a tiny number of Lutheran churches in Britain. My Pastor's wife was brought up in one in Cardiff and officially expelled from it when she underwent Believer's Baptism.

They must have moderated their policy - Luther would have had her drowned.

 

[Jerome]

Lutherans are not Reformed. Do your research.

Straight from the Lutheran Formula of Concord (1577):

the Augsburg Confession....committed to writing in the year 1530....the symbol....whereby our Reformed churches are distinguished from the Papists

Book of Concord of the Evangelical Lutheran Church

 

[Jerome]

Covenantal Baptists are better served by understanding their unique distinctives as compared to Westminsterism.

Yes, although the 1689 Confession mostly apes the Westminster, there are significant differences. The Baptist confession drops the "reformed" descriptor used in the Presbyterian confession ("the true religion" rather than "the true reformed religion") — ironically, many who've recently hopped on the '1689' bandwagon ignorantly call themselves 'Reformed' Baptists.

 

[Yeshua1]

Lutheranism as a theological system is contrary to Reformed theology. There may be individual Lutherans who consider themselves Reformed, but I am personally unaware of any.

Not reformed in the traditional use of that term, as they do not hold to Confessions save for Luthers Cathechism, and hold to a form of infant regeneration.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Yes, although the 1689 Confession mostly apes the Westminster, there are significant differences. The Baptist confession drops the "reformed" descriptor used in the Presbyterian confession ("the true religion" rather than "the true reformed religion") — ironically, many who've recently hopped on the '1689' bandwagon ignorantly call themselves 'Reformed' Baptists.

A typically ignorant response, understanding neither the reason the 17th Century P.B.s followed the WCF, nor why their successors call themselves Reformed today.