What does the altar call mean to you?

[1689Dave]

I am not sure it is fair to say it is legalistic as that is what the Bible says.

When you believe you are saved. But we are to confess our faith.

Churches have made "conversion" too easy. You tell a pastor you believe and you are baptized. What has happened is the "confess" part is ignored entirely.

I perfer an "altar call" because I see a need for people to come before the congregation and then be examined/ counseled to make sure (as much as we can) that the person does understand the gospel, the faith, and that it is true.

Churches have a responsibility not only to the convert but also to the congregation.

I don't think a legalistic formula exists for salvation. People either believe the gospel or they don't. If they must choose to believe, belief is then centered in the flesh trough an act of the will. But if they believe the gospel as they hear it, it is because of the new birth. And from there confession. baptism, congregating and the like is the result of salvation, not the means.

 

[JonC]

I don't think a legalistic formula exists for salvation. People either believe the gospel or they don't. If they must choose to believe, belief is then centered in the flesh trough an act of the will. But if they believe the gospel as they hear it, it is because of the new birth. And from there confession. baptism, congregating and the like is the result of salvation, not the means.

I do not know that it is fair to say this is a "legalistic formula" for two reasons.

First, it holds that it is by faith that obe us saved. Confession and baptism are components of conversion but do not save. The Christian is saved prior to confessing that salvation and being baptized.

Second, this s "legalistic formula" is not invented by men :

Romans 10:8-11
“The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart ,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame .”

We need to guard against "easy believism".

 

[Danthemailman]

We need to guard against "easy believism".

And against hard believism.

 

[1689Dave]

I do not know that it is fair to say this is a "legalistic formula" for two reasons.

First, it holds that it is by faith that obe us saved. Confession and baptism are components of conversion but do not save. The Christian is saved prior to confessing that salvation and being baptized.

Second, this s "legalistic formula" is not invented by men :

Romans 10:8-11
“The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart ,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame .”

We need to guard against "easy believism".

As I understand, Christians are born again, believe, receive baptism, repent, live holy lives. speak about Jesus and do all the tings Christians do because they are Christians. But this got turned around into people acting like this to save themselves. By choosing to do all the things Christians do.

 

[LDE]

I am not sure it is fair to say it is legalistic as that is what the Bible says.

When you believe you are saved. But we are to confess our faith.

Churches have made "conversion" too easy. You tell a pastor you believe and you are baptized. What has happened is the "confess" part is ignored entirely.

I perfer an "altar call" because I see a need for people to come before the congregation and then be examined/ counseled to make sure (as much as we can) that the person does understand the gospel, the faith, and that it is true.

Churches have a responsibility not only to the convert but also to the congregation.

I agree, we go out and witness Jesus and pray to plant seed , sometimes they will want salvation then and you lead them in the sinners prayer on the spot .. I very seldom mention a particular church unless asked, just to find a Bible believing church .. In SC there's a church about on every corner and thank God for them all .. If leading folks to Jesus at church is not a church function then I'm dead wrong .. There's always folks who show up to say ''you ain't saved, if you were you'd be like me'' or either trying to send them up trees they themselves won't climb .. I even added to my witness later to tell them ''today you confessed and asked Jesus to save you, ''remember this day'' when some one asks you or questions your salvation, even yourself '' .. Some Pentecostals are bad about trying to ''help'' with your splinter .. And a couple including (females) Baptists would always give me the 3rd degree ''how do you know you are saved'' .. I was like ''I guess I don't know, I've did all I know to do'' , I was a babe in Christ getting eat alive .. (Thank God for those others who saw it and give me confidence) But I know now the overbearing ones were just starving to have a voice in church instead of going out doing the will of God .. That's a whole other thread ..

 

[GaoLu]

Did you taking the time to test the credibility of their professions?? If so, what questions were asked

This was a large gathering in a missionary setting. God works in amazing ways to be sure!
These were people, sinners, who did not believe, who knew little or nothing about God. As far as I know most or all of them were simply curious to hear a foreigner speak about anything.

1. I am certain that their belief and professions were credible.
2. We questioned them at length. All were baptized and while I have not been able to follow all their lives, all seem to be faithful in a difficult environment, growing in faith and service. In very short, we asked if the people understood sin and what it meant to be sinners. We asked if they believed Jesus and the Gospel. We asked if they renounced Satan and sinful life. We asked if they understood and were ready to enter a covenant relationship with God and were ready to remain faithful until death.

Notes:
1. I am not going into all the questions we asked in this thread as that seems off-topic to me, though a good request. Our conversation was much more about teaching than grilling.
2. I do recall one of the people, a woman, seemed less engaged than the others, her eyes wandering around, looking away as she answered questions. I had doubts. I asked a native Christian friend about her situation and she informed me that the woman was blind. Sometime later the blind woman made a comment something to the effect, "My eyes may not see, but today for the first time my heart can see."

 

[GaoLu]

do all the tings Christians do because they are Christians. But this got turned around into people acting like this to save themselves. By choosing to do all the things Christians do.

I would wonder why totally depraved people would be interested in saving themselves. I would further be amazed that the lost would choose to do all the things Christians do.

That all seems unlikely and backwards to me. Yet Hindu's Buddhists, Daoists, Muslims and others often do "good works" (far from things Christians would do) for very selfish reasons--to gain some personal merit of benefit. Maybe some people would act like Christians for similar reasons? Maybe, but not likely to save themselves. That is my perspective from a non-Western experience.

 

[1689Dave]

I would wonder why totally depraved people would be interested in saving themselves. I would further be amazed that the lost would choose to do all the things Christians do.

That all seems unlikely and backwards to me. Yet Hindu's Buddhists, Daoists, Muslims and others often do "good works" (far from things Christians would do) for very selfish reasons--to gain some personal merit of benefit. Maybe some people would act like Christians for similar reasons? Maybe, but not likely to save themselves. That is my perspective from a non-Western experience.

If you think about it, free will advocates always pick Christian attributes and make them conditions people must choose to perform in order to save themselves. Choosing to believe with the flesh VS believing because of the new birth. Choosing to repent in the flesh VS wanting to repent because of the new birth. Choosing to live a "holy" life in the power of the flesh VS wanting to live a holy life because of the new nature in the new birth, etc.

 

[LDE]

If people believe enough to respond to an alter call, the are already saved. Jesus says whoever believe has eternal life. So the alter call confuses them into thinking they saved themselves by going forward. And it occupies the time slot where baptism would normally occur.

Hi Dave, no need to reply but ,
Why even go to church, why even study the Bible, why different rewards in heaven ? And why folks in hell that was prepared for the devil and his angels ?

 

[1689Dave]

Hi Dave, no need to reply but ,
Why even go to church, why even study the Bible, why different rewards in heaven ? And why folks in hell that was prepared for the devil and his angels ?

Salvation involves an inner change for the better that takes experience. Christ is formed in us.

 

[LDE]

Salvation involves an inner change for the better that takes experience. Christ is formed in us.

By what act of faith and can it involve an alter call where the name of Jesus is being lifted up ?

 

[1689Dave]

By what act of faith and can it involve an alter call where the name of Jesus is being lifted up ?

It's not biblical for starters.

 

[JonC]

As I understand, Christians are born again, believe, receive baptism, repent, live holy lives. speak about Jesus and do all the tings Christians do because they are Christians. But this got turned around into people acting like this to save themselves. By choosing to do all the things Christians do.

Do you believe it would have been better for today's church had Paul left out "If you declare with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,'" from the passage (in your opinion does the verse itself pose a stumbling block which needs to be removed from our theology)?

 

[1689Dave]

Do you believe it would have been better for today's church had Paul left out "If you declare with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,'" from the passage (in your opinion does the verse itself pose a stumbling block which needs to be removed from our theology)?

People take the characteristics of Christian living and turn them into conditions for people to mimic in the flesh. In an attempt to earn salvation.

 

[JonC]

People take the characteristics of Christian living and turn them into conditions for people to mimic in the flesh. In an attempt to earn salvation.

I agree. But that does not answer the question. Would it better for Christians today if we were to edit out "confessing with your mouth" from that passage?

 

[1689Dave]

I agree. But that does not answer the question. Would it better for Christians today if we were to edit out "confessing with your mouth" from that passage?

No, it would be better to interpret it for those who turn it into a law and think they earn salvation through keeping it.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

This was a large gathering in a missionary setting. God works in amazing ways to be sure!
These were people, sinners, who did not believe, who knew little or nothing about God. As far as I know most or all of them were simply curious to hear a foreigner speak about anything.

1. I am certain that their belief and professions were credible.
2. We questioned them at length. All were baptized and while I have not been able to follow all their lives, all seem to be faithful in a difficult environment, growing in faith and service. In very short, we asked if the people understood sin and what it meant to be sinners. We asked if they believed Jesus and the Gospel. We asked if they renounced Satan and sinful life. We asked if they understood and were ready to enter a covenant relationship with God and were ready to remain faithful until death.

Notes:
1. I am not going into all the questions we asked in this thread as that seems off-topic to me, though a good request. Our conversation was much more about teaching than grilling.
2. I do recall one of the people, a woman, seemed less engaged than the others, her eyes wandering around, looking away as she answered questions. I had doubts. I asked a native Christian friend about her situation and she informed me that the woman was blind. Sometime later the blind woman made a comment something to the effect, "My eyes may not see, but today for the first time my heart can see."

I would have preferred stats as to the status.

 

[JonC]

No, it would be better to interpret it for those who turn it into a law and think they earn salvation through keeping it.

I agree we have to be careful of making salvation an issue of works. At the same time we have to avoid "easy believism".

If you will, please explain to me how you view the idea that it is with our heart we believe and are justified and it is with our mouth that we profess our faith and are saved.

I ask because it seems like your posts reject the idea, but I suspect we may simply be talking past each other.

 

[1689Dave]

I agree we have to be careful of making salvation an issue of works. At the same time we have to avoid "easy believism".

If you will, please explain to me how you view the idea that it is with our heart we believe and are justified and it is with our mouth that we profess our faith and are saved.

I ask because it seems like your posts reject the idea, but I suspect we may simply be talking past each other.

The new birth = a new person that does all of these things for the right reason = love for God and others. If it is law we end up trying to do these things in the flesh for the wrong reasons.

 

[JonC]

The new birth = a new person that does all of these things for the right reason = love for God and others. If it is law we end up trying to do these things in the flesh for the wrong reasons.

I agree, but that still dr oes not answer my question.

Do you believe that it is with your mouth that we profess our faith and are saved?