What does the Bible really say about wine?

[gb93433]

Originally posted by James Newman:
I found a link, I think this was probably the source I was thinking of.

Did you read about his man? He is a SDA legalist to the nth degree. He even advocates that married people should not wear a wedding ring because the symbol has lost it value.

Retrieved from http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/christian_dress/4.html "There is more to Christianity than jewelry and rings. This is why they receive limited coverage in the Bible. On the other hand, both the Bible and history reveal that the love and use of jewelry have consistently resulted in spiritual decline and apostasy. Since a wedding ring is such a minor thing, why not play it safe and remove it altogether, unless it is a social imperative?"

What he writes sounds all fine and dandy until you read through all the verbage and realize that what he writes is pure manipuilation and rationalization to fit the theology of the SDA denomination.

 

[HankD]

Mark 7
14 And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand:
15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

 

[North Carolina Tentmaker]

I find it amazing that we as Baptists are quick to condemn drunkenness but slow to mention gluttony.

James said

So by this scripture, am I to understand that Jesus turned the water into wine, but had no intention of anyone drinking it? If they did drink it, and happened to get drunk, at the judgment seat they will point at Jesus and say 'but He put the wine before me!' and Jesus will say, 'but I didn't make you drink it, did I? '

If drunkenness is a sin, Jesus made juice.

By this same reasoning Jesus could not have multiplied the loaves and fishes. What would have happened if someone overate?

 

[av1611jim]

Quote, "I find it amazing that we as Baptists are quick to condemn drunkenness but slow to mention gluttony."

Gluttony is by definition excess drinking also. And this would included soda pop. FYI

Your statement is a smoke screen. It doesn't address the question before us.

One may find all sorts of excuses to justify their own reasons for drinking booze.
I myself WAS an alcoholic/drug addict (redundancy), I know of that which I speak.
But I have been delivered of it. Thank you Jesus!

I ask you, why do most folks drink?
Answer: To feel different. Degrees do not matter here. What matters is you are taking a mind altering substance into your body for pleasure. We are commanded to be sober minded. Yes sober minded includes clear thinking, which is not possible under the influence. It is proven that even one ounce of alcohol influences your thinking.
This is impossible to justify; unless of course, you are determined to ignore the clear warnings and prohibitions of Scripture.
Not all pleasure is wrong, but it is clear that this one is. Not very much different than the fellow who is promiscuois (sp) for pleasure. Like I said, not all pleasure is wrong. God gave us things to enjoy, i.e. food, fishing!, etc. What is wrong is to take a poison into ones body to change their mood/mind/feelings. And yes, ethyl alcohol is poison. Why do you suppose it is MIXED with harmless stuff? Because drinking the pure stuff will kill you.
It is the selfish christian who would contend otherwise.
In His service;
Jim

 

[av1611jim]

Although I do not endorse the theology of this Doctor, let it be said that I don not endorse the theology of non-christian doctors at all. However, that is no excuse to dismiss sound research and medical findings.

With that disclaimer in mind, please be discerning enough to consider this article as it pertains to this issue. It took me 5 minutes to read.

www.amazingdiscoveries.org/amazingdiet/wine-1.htm

This doctor provides very valid arguments and valdi medical papers to support the prohibition of using alcohol for even medical reasons. I supply this for they who would attempt to justify wine drinking in moderation as per Paul's admonition to Timothy.

In His service;
Jim

 

[av1611jim]

I do not believe Jesus made alcoholic wine.

In His service;
Jim

 

[Paul of Eugene]

On the other hand, even as we abstain to avoid the appearance of evil, it ill behooves us to critisize another for doing something that isn't necessarily evil. We shouldn't be the one that does the unnecessary condemning!

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by av1611jim:
I do not believe Jesus made alcoholic wine.

In His service;
Jim

Certainly the people recognized it as the best, whatever that means.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Paul of Eugene:
On the other hand, even as we abstain to avoid the appearance of evil, it ill behooves us to critisize another for doing something that isn't necessarily evil. We shouldn't be the one that does the unnecessary condemning!

Very good point. We'd be akin to the pharasees who attempted to condemn Jesus for working on the Sabbath.

 

[MTA]

Church Covenant


Having been led, as we believe by the Spirit of God, to receive the Lord Jesus Christ as our Savior and, on the profession of our faith, having been baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, we do now, in the presence of God, and this assembly, most solemnly and joyfully enter into covenant with one another as one body in Christ.

We engage, therefore, by the aid of the Holy Spirit to walk together in Christian love; to strive for the advancement of this church, in knowledge, holiness, and comfort; to promote its prosperity and spirituality and to sustain its worship, ordinances, discipline, and doctrines; to contribute cheerfully and regularly to the support of the ministry, the expenses of the church, the relief of the poor, and the spread of the gospel through all nations.

We also engage to maintain family and secret devotions; to religiously educate our children; to seek the salvation of our kindred and acquaintances; to walk circumspectly in the world; to be just in our dealings, faithful in our engagements, and exemplary in our deportment; to avoid all tattling, backbiting, and excessive anger; to abstain from the sale of, and use of, intoxicating drinks as a beverage; to be zealous in our efforts to advance the kingdom of our Savior.

We further engage to watch over one another in brotherly love; to remember one another in prayer; to aid one another in sickness and distress; to cultivate Christian sympathy in feeling and Christian courtesy in speech; to be slow to take offense, but always ready for reconciliation and mindful of the rules of our Savior to secure it without delay.

We moreover engage that when we remove from this place we will, as soon as possible, unite with some other church where we can carry out the spirit of this covenant and the principles of God's Word.

Many of us suscribe to a church covenant similar to the one I have quoted above. Where it is in place, it is commonly held to be a promise between members when they become a member of the local body of believers. (You will notice that abstaining from the use and sale of alcohol as a beverage is only one of several promises of this covenant.) There are more updated versions of this covenant, but most I have seen are almost identical in content. I am reasonably sure that when the original church covenant document was penned back in the 18th century (I think that's correct), that the virtues of alcohol were as overshadowed by the vices resulting from its consumption as it is today. However, while it is important to understand that this covenant is not scripture, it is an exclusive promise, between brothers and sisters in Christ, designed to perserve and promote the moral, ethical, and spiritual principles and behavior of the local congregation.

I guess my point it that, if your church has a similar covenant in place then, although the Bible does not prohibit you from using alcohol in moderation, your church covenant very likely does.

 

[KenH]

I do believe that Jesus made alcoholic wine.

 

[av1611jim]

So in other words you believe that Jesus, who is God, knowing all things, made a poison for people so they could get drunk?
You cannot, seriously, believe that at a wedding, there would not be some who would overindulge and get drunk?
You cannot seriously believe that Our Savior and God, knowing all things, would put something before men that kills brain cells, liver cells, stomach lining, kidney cells, in fact, it kills cells in every part of the body it enters?
It enters the blood directly through the esophagus and stomach lining, hence it affects every part of the body. Now with a straight face you say that Jesus intentionally harmed people?

I do not buy that for one minute.
In His service;
Jim

 

[manchester]

I believe the Bible. No question Jesus created wine, and no question that the wine referred to in the Bible was alcoholic.

 

[Plain ol' Ralph]

Uh, some of yallneed to stick to the Spiritual meaning to certain passages concerning wine, this poor attempt to try and justify fermented grape juice wreaks of liberalism, and the antics of the uninformed along with the lack of Truth according to Scripture. By implicating that "wine" in reference to the Marriage at Cana is pitting God against Himself according to Proverbs 20, not advisable!

Wine means "joy" in most cases when we refer to the New Testament: spiritually, but unfermented "fruit of the vine" literally, learn Scripture, then post, P---LEASE?

 

[HankD]

So in other words you believe that Jesus, who is God, knowing all things, made a poison for people so they could get drunk?
You cannot, seriously, believe that at a wedding, there would not be some who would overindulge and get drunk?
You cannot seriously believe that Our Savior and God, knowing all things, would put something before men that kills brain cells, liver cells, stomach lining, kidney cells, in fact, it kills cells in every part of the body it enters?
It enters the blood directly through the esophagus and stomach lining, hence it affects every part of the body. Now with a straight face you say that Jesus intentionally harmed people?

I do not buy that for one minute.

This time of the year you can go out to your front lawn and often find a certain kind of mushroom called the Death Angel (amanita phalloides) though very attractive, will, if eaten, kill you quite and completely dead.

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

1 Timothy 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

http://wine.about.com/library/bl_health.htm

Personally I am currently an abstainer of alcoholic beverages for the reason of the brethren at my local church not for some supposed intrinsic evil in the alcohol molecules.

HankD

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by av1611jim:
So in other words you believe that Jesus, who is God, knowing all things, made a poison for people so they could get drunk?
You cannot, seriously, believe that at a wedding, there would not be some who would overindulge and get drunk?

Do you believe that God created the ability for man to make gasoline? Do you really think that God would have created that because a person might misuse it and kill someone with it instead of just putting it in their car and driving to church?

Some of those drugs God created have been used to save people from death due to serious injury or illness.

 

[James_Newman]

Alcohol is not intrinsically evil. It has many uses. Evil is the spirit that says one of those uses is drinking. Alcohol is poison. Gasoline is another example of something useful, that can be used for evil. In much the same way, you can inhale fumes from Gasoline to get a 'buzz'. This is probably even worse for your body than drinking alcohol. Will you argue that God condones this as well? Perhaps in moderation?

Isaiah 65:8
Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.

This wine contains a blessing.

Proverbs 20
1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

This wine is deceitful.

 

[LarryN]

James, please exegete these verses:

(KJV) Deut. 14:24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee: 25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose: 26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

The meaning of the term "wine" oftentimes is in dispute, but can anyone really dispute that "strong drink" here refers to an alcoholic beverage (especially in light of other references to the term)?

(KJV) Isaiah 25:6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

"The lees" is a term for the by-products of the fermentation process. Here, speaking prophetically, the Bible seems to unquestionably indicate that the Lord Himself will one day serve wine with an alcohol content.

(KJV) Luke 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish. 38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved. 39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

Here is Jesus Himself speaking; without any hint of disapproval.

 

[manchester]

(KJV) Luke 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish. 38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved. 39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

Some would take an OT verse out of context and use it against Jesus, who said the above. Let's defend Jesus rather than man-made doctrines.

 

[James_Newman]

OK, Larry, you win. The bible absolutely allows you to drink 'whatsoever your soul lusteth after' but drunkards will not inherit the kingdom of God, absolutely. If you think you can walk that line, do so at your own peril. But take heed, lest ye fall. The bible tells us to make no provision for the flesh. Paul says all things are lawful, but not all things are expedient. You may indeed drown yourself in liquor if you choose. When you appear before Him, you may wish you hadn't.