What does the Bible really say about wine?

Once again, your comments and condescending accusations are not based on a sound scriptural platform. However, it is somewhat comical that every time you read something that you disagree with, it is because the other person is uninformed. Regardless, as inflammatory as your posts are, I am sure at least half of what you post is just the result of the thin air you are breathing. It will be alright though, you just have to climb down off your high horse.

There is no correlation of Proverbs 20 to support your position regarding the type of wine referenced by Christ's miracle at the marriage in Cana. The context of the scriptures, the customary wine used at this type of feast, and the comments of the guests seemingly indicate that the wine contained alcohol and was more full-bodied than what would ordinarily be served at that point in the feast. Anyone can state that it wasn't alcoholic, but there is no conclusive proof that it wasn't.

Wine is spoken of throughout the Bible and the types of wine used during those times has been exhaustively researched. The words that are translated into wine represent beverages ranging from those that contained little or no alcohol all the way up to those with significantly greater alcohol contents. Some wines even had the consistency of syrup, requiring water or other beverages to be mixed with them.

I have found no definition of wine to mean joy, either spiritually or literally, although there are plenty of references where wine was used to celebrate joyfulness. To state that the word wine in the New Testament references unfermented wine cannot be substantiated.

What may be confusing the issue more than anything is the tendency to equate the biblical consumption of wine with the invitation and/or temptation to drink to become drunk. This stuggle between ancient customs and modern traditional interpretations is not easy to reconcile without additional study.

 

Not trying to win anything, James- and your assumption that I myself drink is incorrect. It's my personal choice however; but if I did drink, it wouldn't voilate any prohibition of Scripture- because there is none.

 

I, of course, disagree with your description of the situation.

Jesus created alcoholic wine. You and others can deny it all you want but you cannot change the fact that He did so. If you have a problem with Him doing so, then I advise you to take up the issue with Him.

 

I do not try to change the fact that indeed Jesus made wine. My contention is that you seem to think He made it alcoholic.
I disagree.
"God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth He any man."
Complain all you want.
This is the facts.
In His service;
Jim

 

It cannot be proven one way or another.

God makes both attractive and not so attractive people, that doesn't make Him the one who tempts people to lust after the attractive ones.

HankD

 

Jim:
Does alcohol tempt man? Does it possess a nature that we can truly call evil? Do you believe that wine (as well as other alcoholic beverages) are a perversion of the good that God has created?

The Bible clearly warns against the abuse of, not the use of wine. We may speculate that Christ never made wine, never drank wine and so on, but given what we do know about the era that Christ lived and the customs that were prevalent at that time, that seems highly unlikely. What we can be sure of is that Christ lived sinless and, as far as wine is concerned, that would minimally mean that he never over-indulged.

 

Jesus said He was accused of being a glutton and a winebibber (drunkard) in Matthew 11:19 and Luke 7:34 because He ate and drank with the publicans and sinners. The people Jesus ate and drank with served alcoholic wine. If Jesus had never consumed any, there would be no basis for the accusations - at least it seems that way to me.

I am not defending drinkng alcohol, but you must stick to what the Bible says without interjecting your own opinions into it. No where in the NT is drinking alcohol forbidden. But abuse (drunkeness) is.

 

Grape juice was a recent invention of the Welch Co. during the Depression. They were a winery in the Finger Lakes region of New York before being forced to inovate.

Grape juice has no natural preservatives and could not be made to last long in the first century.

This from the Companion Bible index:

WINE.
There are eight Hebrew words translated wine. A careful observation of their use will tell us all that there is to be known on the subject.

I. Yayin, from the root yayan, to ferment, used of every sort of wine. The word occurs 142 time, and includes fermented wine of all kinds.

The first occurrence is :

Gen. 9:21. "Noah planted a vineyard and drank yayin and was drunken."

Gen. 14:18. "Melchizedek ... brought forth bread and wine."

1Sam. 25:36, 37. Nabal drank yayin and "was very drunken."

Isa. 28:1. "The drunkards of Ephraim ... are overcome (i.e. knocked down) with yayin."

Jer. 23:9. "I am like a drunken man, and like a man whom yayin hath overcome".

It is perfectly certain, therefore, from these passages, that yayin was fermented, and was intoxicating.

Yayin was also used for sacred purposes and for blessing.

Gen. 49:12. "His (Judah's) eyes shall be red with yayin, and his teeth white with milk."

Amos 9:13. "I will bring again the captivity of my people, and they shall plant vineyards and drink the yayin thereof." (v. 14 is No. V.)

Ecc. 9:7. "Drink thy yayin with a merry heart, for God now accepteth thy works."

The Nazarite, at the expiration of his vow, drank yayin. See Num. 6:13-20. It was used at the Feasts of Jehovah (Deut. 14:24-26), and was poured out as a drink-offering to Jehovah (Ex. 29:40. Lev. 23:13. Num. 15:5).

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II. Tirosh, from yarash, to possess = must, or new wine, so called because it gets possession of the brain. It occurs thirty-four times in the Old Testament.
Hos. 4:11. "Whoredom and yayin and tirosh take away the heart" (i.e. they blunt the feelings, derange the intellect).

Some say that tirosh means grapes, and is used as solid food, because in Gen. 37:28 we read of "tirosh and corn". We might as well say that when we speak of "bread and water", that water is also a solid, because bread is a solid. On the contrary, "tirosh and corn" mean liquids and solids, by the figure of Synecdoche (of Genus), Ap. 6.

Prov. 3:10. "Thy presses shall burst out with tirosh."

Isa. 62:8. "The sons of the stranger shall not drink thy tirosh."

Joel 2:24. "The fats (vats) shall overflow with tirosh and oil."

Mic. 6:15. "Thou shalt tread ... tirosh, but shalt not drink yayin."

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III. Chemer, from chamar, to ripen. Hence used of strong red wine. It occurs eight times.
Deut. 32:14. "The pure chemer of the grape."

Isa. 27:2, 3. "A vineyard of chemer. I the Lord do keep it".

Ezra 6:9. Cyrus and Artaxerxes commanded that chemer should be given to the people of Israel for the service of the God of Heaven.

The Rabbins called it neat wine, because, unmixed with water, it disturbs the head and brain.

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IV. Shekar = strong drink (from shakar, to get drunk), a very intoxicating drink made from barley, honey, or dates.
Num. 28:7. "In the holy place shalt thou cause the shekar (strong wine) to be poured unto the Lord for a drink offering."

Deut. 14:-25, 26. "Thou ... shalt go unto the place which the Lord thy God shall choose : and thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, of for yayin (wine), or for shekar (strong drink), or for whatsoever thy soul desireth : and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household".

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V. 'Asis (from 'asas, to tread) new or sweet wine of the vintage year.
Isa. 49:26. "They shall be drunken with their own blood, as with 'asis (sweet wine)".

The drinking of this was held out by God as a blessing conferred by Him. Joel 3:17, 18. Amos 9:13.

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VI. Sob'e, any kind of strong intoxicating drink : from sab'a, to drink to excess, become drunk : occurs twice.
Isa. 1:22. "Thy silver is become dross, thy sob'e (wine) mixed with water".

Hos. 4:18. "Their sob'e (drinking bout or carouse) is over" (A.V. their drink is sour (marg. gone). (R.V. marg. their carouse is over).

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VII. Mimsak, mixed or spiced wine.
Prov. 23:30. "They that tarry long at the yayin; they that go to seek mimsak (mixed wine)."

Isa. 65:11. "That prepare a table for Fortune, and that fill up mingled wine (mimsak) unto Destiny" (R.V.).

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VIII. Shemarim, from shamar, to keep, preserve, lay up; hence, old wine, purified from the lees and racked off.
Ps. 75:8. "but the shemarim (dregs), all the wicked of the earth shall wring them out, and drink them."

Isa. 25:6. "Wines on the lees."

Zeph. 1:12. "I will ... punish the men that are settled on their shemarim (lees)".

Jer. 48:11. "Moab ... hath settled on his lees."

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N.B. The word translated "flagons of wine" is 'ashishah, from 'ashash, to press; hence a hardened syrup made of grapes, a sweet cake of dried grapes or pressed raisins. It occurs in 2Sam. 6:19. 1Chron. 16:3. Song 2:5. Hos. 3:1.
With these data it will be seen that the modern expression, "unfermented wine", is a contradiction of terms. If it is wine, it must have fermented. If it has not been fermented, it is not wine, but a syrup.

Leaven is sour dough, and not wine. It is that which causes the fermentation. There can be no leaven after the process of fermentation has ceased.

 

By this same reasoning Jesus could not have multiplied the loaves and fishes. What would have happened if someone overate? </font>[/QUOTE]If I had dime for all of the Baptist pastors that I know that are gluttons but condem any use of alcohol.....

 

Finish your sentence, Dale!!

 

I tell you guys what, if you eat to much you'll go to hell. Better?

Gluttony is certainly a sin that needs to be preached on more these days. But how can we excuse drunkeness because gluttony is rampant??

 

Hey James and Dale,

This is the wrong time of the year to bring up the subject of gluttony!



HankD

 

lol, you got that right!

 

The question was asked; why would they accuse Him (Jesus) of being a drunkard if He was only drinking juice?

 

They also said He had a devil. False accusations do not need any factual basis.

 

can you prove that it was a false accusation?

 

Yes. Jesus lived a sinless life, didn't he? Of course He was not a glutton or a winebibber. And He certainly didn't have a devil.

 

you have not as of yet given any proof that Christ didn't make wine, nor that He didn't partake of it .

 

So are you saying He was a drunk?

Proverbs 31
4 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:
5 Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.
6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.

If you think that the King of Kings didn't know what proverbs 31 said (even though He wrote it) then maybe I'm wrong.

 

Since drinking wine is not a sin, Jesus drinking wine would not be a problem.

Indeed. Simply consuming wine does not make one a winebibber any more than simply consuming food makes one a glutton.

Jesus was a devout and faithful member of the Jewish faith. He had wine with every Sabbath meal every week. If he had refrained from consuming wine at a Sabbath meal, this would have been an incredibly significant thing for the Jews, sufficient enough to warrant mentioning in the Gospels. But the Gospel writers are silent.