What Dr. James P. Boyce thought about Arminians

[connieman]

Dr B... why should God have to justify His choice of whom to love, in the sight of His fallen, sinful creatures? Especially, when He has no "reason" to love even one of them? (Please pass this on to Professor Geisler)

Miracle of miracles...that He should love even a "few", especially me.

In the Name of Him Whom we love only because he first loved us,

connieman

[ June 05, 2002, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: connieman ]

 

[Ray Berrian]

Connieman,

With all due respect my brother, in my opinion, your question is an improper, hypothetical question and one that is unethical and a disappointment to Almighty God.

God does not choose some for Heaven and some for Hell. He has always known who His elect are and has left the choice to human beings.

When you follow Calvin's ideas you will come to the conclusion that God's love for His humanity is fragmentary because He is spoken of as loving unconditionally His elect and by default, hating the rest of these never-dying souls. His love for human beings is perfect just as His Divine attributes are blameless and unimpeachable. It is Divinely impossible for the Triune Godhead not to love that which They have created in the Image of God.

At both the Judgment Seat of Christ and at the Great White Throne Judgment God's justice will also be flawless. There will be no appealing to a higher justice, because there is none loftier than Christ's evaluation of our lives and the lost ones. All excuses for our behavior will be, as it were, thrown out of court. [Revelation 22:11].

No one would doubt His mercy. Christ's compassion/mercy is impeccable. His love, His justice, His mercy and holiness are inviolate and will forever remain the same. We are told that ‘He is the same yesterday, today and forever.' [Hebrews 13:8].

We could go on and speak of His holiness. Perhaps most of all we realize that God could never sin because this would be antithetical to His Essence of Being.

Loving humankind is the aspect of God's nature that is most spoken about by people. That is because we sense our utter need of His love even before the salvation experience. In actuality all of His Divine attributes are in blameless symmetry.

Sinners like to remind God's people that His love is so great that He will never send anyone to Hell. Why do they believe this? Because they are self-deceived and/or beguiled by the Evil one. When we over emphasize the love of God we place His justice in peril in the minds and hearts of both the people of God and also sinners. When we do this they think they are getting away with sinning, but as we both know they are not. Just as His love prevails so too His unrestricted judgment. Each of these concepts are Biblically factual.

If we push His sovereignty to the limit we get into all kinds of misrepresentations of the holy Gospel. For one, we make God the Author of evil. This is unthinkable in my mind and in the minds of many theologians. When we catapult sovereignty to the uttermost we make Him the autocratic God in Heaven who only cares for His ultimate glory, in damning Whoever He wills, when in reality He loves everyone and wishes that they would be saved eternally. [John 3:16 & I Timothy 2:4, 6].

In Romans 9:1-3 we notice that the Apostle Paul's desire was that his nationality would receive the ‘ . . . adoption . . ..' and become saved. [Romans 10:1] ‘Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.' If Paul was speaking for God then we also must conclude that the Lord's desire is that all might be saved. We can rest assured that God would not allow Paul to state his wishes in the precious Word of God, if his feelings were contrary to His sovereign plan for human beings.

How can God be unimpeachable in His love, mercy, justice, sovereignty and holiness. He radiates these indivisible, inseparable, eternal attributes by offering the Gospel through His messengers and those who believe will be saved; those who remain in unbelief will be forever lost. [Mark 16:15-16].

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
With all due respect my brother, in my opinion, your question is an improper, hypothetical question and one that is unethical and a disappointment to Almighty God.

Assuming you are referring to the above post, this question is not original with Connieman. It actually came from Paul (in a slightly different wording) who answered it in a way that you would seem to have to reject.

Rom 9:18-21 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

Paul's points was to demonstrate that God does not have to justify his choice to us, just as the potter does not have to justify his choice of which vessel to make or destroy to the pot.

God does not choose some for Heaven and some for Hell. He has always known who His elect are and has left the choice to human beings.

Aside from teh strictly exegetical problems you face (such as passages that clearly tell us that God chose us), how do you support this last sentence? On what basis do you say that God has always known who his elect are? If this knowledge is eternal (which it must be since God is omniscient), then how can there be any real choice? Man cannot change his mind can he?

[ June 06, 2002, 09:56 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[Ray Berrian]

Romans nine has absolutely nothing to do with any kind of election unto salvation as alleged by John Calvin. Brother Calvin just got too ‘heavy handed' in explaining some of the sovereign designs of the Lord our Savior which are not corroborated in the Word of God.

God could not because of His impeccable Nature – meaning His pure love for all of His humanity and His unprejudiced justice, elect some to Heaven and the majority to Hell. This would be clearly a violation of His inner Being. Isn't it absurd that God who requires that we love our enemies, is found hating His enemies that we might define as His election unto damnation.

The Apostle Paul was merely pointing out that God had chosen the elder son, Esau to serve the younger son, Jacob. Jacob was Divinely elected to be of the lineage that led to the promised son, our Savior. It is very clearly pointed out that God molded Pharaoh, Jacob and Esau like clay according to His sovereign purpose. Nothing is said about saving and damning souls.

Pharaoh was already a sinner when God molded him as clay. If you study the Old Testament you will find that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, before God solidified it finally. Why did He sovereignly mold him in this way?‘. . . that He might show His power in Pharaoh, and that His name might be declared throughout all the earth.' [9:17]

Pharaoh and Esau are not even used as a pattern of those who God elected to Hell. If they were not even used as a archetype, it is unconscionable that people say that God elects the majority to Hell.

Again, God speaking through Paul ‘ . . . desired that Israel might be saved.' [Romans 9:1-4 & 10:1]

This will get some of you brethren on the correct theological pathway.

Respectfully,

Dr. Berrian

 

[Pastor Larry]

Ray,

I am not sure what your above post adds to the discussion that has not already been said. It appears to be a restatement of your oft-restated position. When you post, please try to add something new or point to a question that you feel is as yet unanswered.

Speaking of which, you did not reference my post in any way. I am interested in your response to the comments I made above.

 

[connieman]

You have been warned not to question people's salvation in the manner in which you have.

You need to exhibit some Christian grace.

[ June 06, 2002, 09:59 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[Ray Berrian]

Pastor Larry,

My basis for saying that God has always known who His elect saints are comes out of several passages in the New Testament.

Romans 8:29 The word in the Greek is the word that we use namely, ‘prognosis.' He always has known what the final determination of the hearts of every individual will be.

Ephesians 1:4-5 Melanchthon's view of God's election, is like mine, making the election of particular people foreknown to Him on the ground of their foreseen faith and trust in Christ. As a matter of fact, in Matthew 13 our Lord shows us whose fault it is that the majority will be lost. The sower was faithful, the Word of God was true, but the human response to God and His invitation was noticeably different. God was faithful; human hearts were deceived for all of the listed reasons. No one can blame God for the lives of those people who had responded inappropriately to His call.

I Peter 1:2 Again, all of God's electing is through the instrumentality of His ‘prognosis' of how we will have responded to the invitation of the Gospel.

John 1:12-13 God is the source by which the new birth is given {vs. 13} but human free will is the means by which it is received {vs. 12}. The gift of salvation is by His action of grace, but always (Greek--dia) ‘through' faith that we are saved. [Ephesians 2:8]

I believe I have touched on your main question that you raised. I welcome also your response to my post dated June 6, 2002 sent at 5:51 p.m. Most often people do not respond to things they cannot in good conscience refute. I am saying that Romans chapter nine has NOTHING to do with God electing some to Heaven and Hell. Please, cite individual souls that He sent to Heaven or Hell at His own bidding. Electing certain events in human beings lives is clearly understandable, but not in such weighty matters as people's never dying souls. In this most serious dimension He leaves this matter to individual people.

 

[connieman]

Pastor Larry...I may be lacking in what you call "Christian Grace", but I do not consider that this means that I must compromise with false doctrine for the sake of being "nice". Not all professors of Christ are necessarily my true Christian "brothers."

Perhaps you need to recognize the continuing existence of those whom the apostle Paul called "false brethren", and the trouble that they had caused him in his efforts to proclaim the One True Gospel.

Obviously, these were people who held themselves out to be Christians, but were not. Jesus specifically pointed up the fact that not all professors of faith are genuine, the planting of the Lord.

At the same time, I understand that you must try to keep these discussions as broad as possible, allowing all persons an opportunity to express an opinion. In future, I will try very hard to conform to your standards of conduct.

In Christian love,

connieman

[ June 07, 2002, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: connieman ]

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by connieman:
Pastor Larry...I may be lacking in what you call "Christian Grace", but I do not consider that this means that I must compromise with false doctrine for the sake of being "nice".

"People tend to show grace to others to the same extent that they understand the grace that they, themselves, have recieved." - Steve Brown

Connie, it's bad enough to declare someone "unsaved", but you're condemning people based on what are largely secondary issues.

Everyone has judged someone unfairly at one time or another and there are times when the Bible commands us to make righteous judgements.

In either case, if we're going to judge then we should at least be judging something worthy of judgement.

Remember Augustine's "unity...liberty...charity" quote?

We can argue Calvinism v Arminianism 'til Jesus comes back, but, at the end of the day, the fact that people come to the cross is more important than how they got there.

Mike

http://www.keylife.org

 

[connieman]

Oh, smokeater...are you talking about a "cross" that saves, or a "cross" that only makes salvation possible, IF men are just naturally willing? Which "cross"? One is purely imaginary.

There is no IF in the Gospel of the Grace of God!

If you only understood the Gospel, you wouldn't dismiss this discussion as "secondary" and "unworthy". We are speaking of the true Gospel here.

In the Name of Him Who loved us who believe before we ever loved Him,

connieman

[ June 07, 2002, 07:33 PM: Message edited by: connieman ]

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by connieman:
Oh, smokeater...are you talking about a "cross" that saves, or a "cross" that only makes salvation possible, IF men are just naturally willing? Which "cross"? One is purely imaginary.

Oh, connieman...I'm talking about the vicarious, atoning work of Christ through which salvation is available to "whosoever believes in Him".

If you only understood the Gospel, you wouldn't dismiss this discussion as "secondary" and "unworthy". We are speaking of the true Gospel here.

If you only understood grace, you wouldn't be so condescending to those around you and you wouldn't hold those around you to higher
standards than Jesus Himself does.

Might I remind you that grace is both the cause and the effect of the "true Gospel"?

Mike

http://www.keylife.org

[ June 07, 2002, 07:48 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

[connieman]

Smokeater...that "vicarious, atoning work of Christ" which accomplishes nothing unless sinners decide to believe it?

How then does the scripture say, "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."???

How many of the above do you imagine will just naturally somehow "decide" to follow Jesus?

In the Name of Him Who has saved "all that the Father giveth Me", but none extra,

connieman

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by connieman:
How then does the scripture say, "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."???

Pretty much like that, connieman.

How many of the above do you imagine will just naturally somehow "decide" to follow Jesus?

I have no idea. I don't have the ability to read men's hearts the way you do but I'm sure that God, in His sovereignty, will take care of it and I'm sure that he won't ask your or my opinion about it.

In the name of Him Who has saved "all that the Father giveth me", but none extra.

I hope you're not quoting John 6:37 because (a) you're adding to it, which the Bible commands us not to do and (b) you left out the second half of that verse which, when taken in context completely changes the meaning you've ascribed to it and (c)you've taken it grossly out of context.

The very next half of that verse that you conveniently neglected to mention is: "...and him that cometh to Me, I will in no wise cast out", which leads me to believe that we do, at some point have to acknowledge Him.

The bottom line is this, connieman, grace gives us the lattitude to disagree about this. You can argue about it if you like, but I think you'd be better off picking your battles more wisely.

Like I said, I'm really more concerned that someone comes to the cross in the first place than I am with how they got there.

Mike

http://www.keylife.org

 

[Ray Berrian]

SmokeEater,

What you said was really valid.

When I first heard that Five Point Calvinists believed what they still believe I could hardly deal with it and doubted their salvation.

Now, twenty years down the line I am reminded of my own feelings about their twisted emphasis that allegedly has come out of Biblical truth. Just because someone is saved does not make them well versed in Biblical knowledge or correct exegesis. When people are taught something within the walls of the church, they tend to just swallow it as being the truth. Even the 'wayfaring man--though a fool' finally gets into the presence of God.

Did not Jesus say to someone, 'O ye of little faith.' Now if faith and grace comes from God in 'the tight package' [Ephesians 2:8-9] that Mr. Harold Camping speaks about, are we to believe that the Lord gave this man just a little faith and then blamed him for not having greater faith? On the other hand, if faith has something to do with human beings trust and response to Him, then the statement of Jesus makes real sense.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
SmokeEater,

What you said was really valid.

When I first heard that Five Point Calvinists believed what they still believe I could hardly deal with it and doubted their salvation.

Now, twenty years down the line I am reminded of my own feelings about their twisted emphasis that allegedly has come out of Biblical truth. Just because someone is saved does not make them well versed in Biblical knowledge or correct exegesis. When people are taught something within the walls of the church, they tend to just swallow it as being the truth. Even the 'wayfaring man--though a fool' finally gets into the presence of God.

Did not Jesus say to someone, 'O ye of little faith.' Now if faith and grace comes from God in 'the tight package' [Ephesians 2:8-9] that Mr. Harold Camping speaks about, are we to believe that the Lord gave this man just a little faith and then blamed him for not having greater faith? On the other hand, if faith has something to do with human beings trust and response to Him, then the statement of Jesus makes real sense.

Hey Ray,

Thanks for the kind words.

I'll be honest with you, as long as I've been a Christian, I don't know how I feel about it.

I've heard reasonable arguments from both sides but haven't really ever taken a stand one way or the other for two reasons. One is because it divides people over a non-essential issue when we really should give each other the lattitude to disagree on this.

The other reason is simply that who is or isn't God's is better left to God.

I know that sooner or later I'm going to have to get off the fence but until somebody nails me down, I'll just say that while I don't believe that God says "eenie meenie miney moe" over us, He does have divine foreknowledge to know who is His (or who will be, depending on which side of the aisle you're on).

I also believe that God makes Himself known to us to the extent that we care to seek Him out.

I think basically it's like Hank Hannegraaf says: "No one will ever stand before the throne of God and say, 'but Lord, that's not fair'".

Harold Camping? ARRGGGHHHHH! Run away! Run away!

I think the angriest letter I ever wrote anyone was when a woman called him and said that she was being physically assaulted by her husband and asked Camping what she should do. He told her that she should just stay there and take it.

I was so inscenced that he would say this to a battered woman that I couldn't even see straight.

I think it's funny that he hangs up on callers the minute it sounds like they might disagree with him and I think he proved what kind of guy he really was when he put out the book telling you when Jesus would come back and when Jesus didn't come back, he just ignored it and hoped it would go away.

Mike

http://www.buddygreene.com

 

[connieman]

To All...the Bible gives a number of ways to tell those who are the Lord's, and those who are not, so that His children can avoid those who are not, as we are commanded. We must be able to tell a wolf from a sheep, according to the scriptures.

BTW, smokeater, how one gets to the cross (there is really only one way, by the grace of God) determines who is given the glory...whether God, or man. God has said, "I will not give my glory to another."

Now, as we were saying, "Come ye out from among them..." Have nothing to do with them..." "Beware of false prophets."
And false christs, and false brethren, and false gospels, etc., etc. "Believe not every spirit, but try the spirits, whether they be of God..."

How can one obey God and refuse to discern truth from error, you who are so, so noble, tolerant and non-judgmental?

connieman

[ June 08, 2002, 12:34 AM: Message edited by: connieman ]

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by connieman:
To All...the Bible gives a number of ways to tell those who are the Lord's, and those who are not, so that His children can avoid those who are not, as we are commanded. We must be able to tell a wolf from a sheep, according to the scriptures.

Finally, we agree on something but connieman, doesn't Paul warn us to be on the lookout for people who cause division over non-essential issues?

BTW, smokeater, how one gets to the cross (there is really only one way) determines who is given the glory...whether God, or man.

I disagree.

Mike

 

[connieman]

smokeater...it is in the nature of man to boast of whatever he thinks he has accomplished.

One who believes that he has brought himself to Christ by his own "free-will" decision is going to brag about it, if he is honest, and not trying to prove what a wonderfully humble Calvinistic-Arminian, or Calminian, he is.

Such a one, who believes that his salvation is, at least, a little bit of himself, may say, "Well, I'm not one to boast, BUT, after all, it was my decision which put me "in Christ" and opened the gate into heaven. "I was an unregenerate volunteer...wasn't I good?"

To the lost and unbelievers, he will say, "You could have been saved just like me, if only you had had the good sense that I had, to choose Christ!" THAT'S A BOAST IF EVER I HEARD ONE.

I grew up among folks like this, and I've heard it all my life, from pulpit and pew. "Won't you please get saved, just like me? All you have to do is say 'yes' to Jesus! Like I did!"

connieman

[ June 08, 2002, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: connieman ]

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by connieman:
smokeater...it is in the nature of man to boast of whatever he thinks he has accomplished.

One who believes that he has brought himself to Christ by his own "free-will" decision is going to brag about it, if he is honest, and not trying to prove what a wonderfully humble Calvinistic-Arminian, or Calminian, he is.

Such a one, who believes that his salvation is, at least, a little bit of himself, may say, "Well, I'm not one to boast, BUT, after all, it was my decision which put me "in Christ" and opened the gate into heaven. "I was an unregenerate volunteer...wasn't I good?

To the unbeliever, he will say, "You could have been saved just like me, if only you had had the good sense that I had, to choose Christ!" THAT'S A BOAST IF EVER I HEARD ONE.

I grew up among folks like this, and I've heard it all my life. "Won't you get saved, just like me? All you have to do is say 'yes' to Jesus! Like I did!"

connieman

To be completely fair, though - I've heard several Calvinists come close to this with the whole, "I've been chosen. It's too bad others haven't" kinds of statements.

 

[Ray Berrian]

ScottEmerson,

You need to get out more. I never heard any person who believes in free will boasting about how they came to Christ and augmented or earned their personal salvation. Yes, it is our faith/trust that activates His sovereign grace--though unmerited by the saints. If people are not some kind of 'nut bag' they realize that only God can minister the Holy Spirit by way of indwelling and sealing. Only Almighty God can take a yielded person into His majestic Presence at last.