What ever happened to “sound Doctrine”?

[JesusFan]

The very fact that he said that indicated that some were speaking in an ecstatic tongue and not knowing what they were saying, possibly denying Christ. He was referring to their pagan backgrounds from which they came out of.

The statement is a sarcastic rebuke. He then says I would rather speak in five words with understanding then 10,000 words without understanding (in another language).

That speaks of the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit; has nothing to do with tongues.

You can't speak in tongues if tongues have ceased.
If you think you can speak in tongues, then define the language that you are speaking in. They were known languages. The are always known languages. If tongues were a gift for today, then why do missionaries have to study foreign languages--even Charismatic missionaries. Why don't they use the gift of languages (more appropriately called)?

Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. (Acts 2:11)
Cretans and Arabians: we hear them speaking in our languages the mighty works of God!" (Acts 2:11)
--These were known languages; not ecstatic utterances as one hears today. It wasn't gibberish like today.

Once you open up your mind, stop thinking, then you allow the devil entrance to a playground to do pretty much any thing he wants to do. The Bible admonishes us to always have control of our mind, to think, meditate, study, take heed, etc.

So it says in 1Cor.12:28ff. It lists all the gifts in order of importance. And tongues and the interpretation thereof are at the bottom of the list.

These spiritual gifts were given when the NT was not yet complete. When the NT was completed, at the end of the first century, then these gifts faded away, as history attests. They were no more needed. We have the Word of God and that is all that is necessary, as Heb.1:1,2 teaches. All that we need to know about God is contained within the pages of this book (the Bible). We do not need the spiritual gifts of the first century to give us extra knowledge to help us out in that manner. The canon of Scripture is closed.

Well...

Again, you keep referring to those Gifts as being in REVELATORY stage today...
I am a strict baptist on that, the canon of scripture IS completed, NO more need or any additional written revelation will be granted to the Church...
Also agree that missionaries never evidence the "gift of languages"
nevertheless..

When one is in prayer communion with God, studying the Bible praising the Lord meditating on him and His word etc...
in the midst of praising Him, are you saying that the devil can come in and "jam it up?"
During that time, one still has control over his mind and thoughts praising the Lord, interceding to God for the saints...
Again, the Devil can get in to mess that up?

Good discussion with you onn this subject...

is there an "official" overall baptist statement/viewpoint on this , or is it ALL up to each local Church and Pastoral staff?

 

[revmwc]

Well...

Again, you keep referring to those Gifts as being in REVELATORY stage today...
I am a strict baptist on that, the canon of scripture IS completed, NO more need or any additional written revelation will be granted to the Church...
Also agree that missionaries never evidence the "gift of languages"
nevertheless..

When one is in prayer communion with God, studying the Bible praising the Lord meditating on him and His word etc...
in the midst of praising Him, are you saying that the devil can come in and "jam it up?"
During that time, one still has control over his mind and thoughts praising the Lord, interceding to God for the saints...
Again, the Devil can get in to mess that up?

Good discussion with you onn this subject...

is there an "official" overall baptist statement/viewpoint on this , or is it ALL up to each local Church and Pastoral staff?

1 Timothy 2: 1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

Paul giving example of what prayer should be about, in all these things where do you see a need for tongues in the prayer?

Matthew 6:

5And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

7But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

8Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

Notice verse 6 private prayers are to remain that private. How do you know that in their private prayers they speak in tongues?
If they speak in tongues in their prayer and repeat the same phrase over and over that becomes vain repititions. If you don't know what you say how do you know it isn't a vain repetition.

The final test of a prayer especially public does it follow the order that Jesus gave to us in Matthew 6:
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

11Give us this day our daily bread.

12And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Where in this MODEL that Jesus gave us do you see the need for tongues to be used? Everything in the model prayer requires you to know what you are saying and requesting of God.

If Jesus said nothing of speaking in tongues in our prayers why should we do it. If they are private prayers noone else should know what is hppening and if you tell others you spoke in tongues in your private prayers then are you like the pharisees? That they may be seen of men in others for man's praise. True prayer has no need for tongues except the dialect you speak and God hears you in that prayer.

 

[DHK]

Well...

Again, you keep referring to those Gifts as being in REVELATORY stage today...
I am a strict baptist on that, the canon of scripture IS completed, NO more need or any additional written revelation will be granted to the Church...
Also agree that missionaries never evidence the "gift of languages"
nevertheless..

When one is in prayer communion with God, studying the Bible praising the Lord meditating on him and His word etc...
in the midst of praising Him, are you saying that the devil can come in and "jam it up?"
During that time, one still has control over his mind and thoughts praising the Lord, interceding to God for the saints...
Again, the Devil can get in to mess that up?

If you believe in speaking in tongues, what do you mean? Do you mean in the popular usage as it is used today--an ecstatic experience where the person speaks unintelligible syllables that we normally call gibberish? Or are you referring to that which is Biblical? An actual language that needed an interpreter? The language was supernaturally given by God and it was unknown to the one speaking it but known to many others in the congregation. It may not have been known to all, thus the need for interpretation. Which scenario?
I presume it is the former. The modern unbiblical form of gibberish that every Charismatic speaks, for it is evident that the latter biblical gift has passed away.
When a person opens up their mind, then yes they leave the door open for satanic activity. Beware of the wiles of the devil. He wanders about like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. These warnings were written to Christians. We are to have the mind of Christ and to concentrate on Him. We are not doing that when we give our minds over to another source. That is what happens when one speaks in tongues. Often they let their subconscious bypass their conscious mind.

Good discussion with you onn this subject...

is there an "official" overall baptist statement/viewpoint on this , or is it ALL up to each local Church and Pastoral staff?

In our church we teach that the gifts have ceased. Thus if we found out that a person was practicing speaking in tongues, even in private, we would try counselling that person. If he would refuse counsel and refuse to be taught on the subject we would probably advise him to go to a church where he agrees with the statement of faith, because he certainly doesn't agree with ours. We need unity among the believers; unity in doctrine. And sometimes that unity has to come at the expense of either a person leaving quietly or even of church discipline.

 

[JesusFan]

If you believe in speaking in tongues, what do you mean? Do you mean in the popular usage as it is used today--an ecstatic experience where the person speaks unintelligible syllables that we normally call gibberish? Or are you referring to that which is Biblical? An actual language that needed an interpreter? The language was supernaturally given by God and it was unknown to the one speaking it but known to many others in the congregation. It may not have been known to all, thus the need for interpretation. Which scenario?
I presume it is the former. The modern unbiblical form of gibberish that every Charismatic speaks, for it is evident that the latter biblical gift has passed away.
When a person opens up their mind, then yes they leave the door open for satanic activity. Beware of the wiles of the devil. He wanders about like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. These warnings were written to Christians. We are to have the mind of Christ and to concentrate on Him. We are not doing that when we give our minds over to another source. That is what happens when one speaks in tongues. Often they let their subconscious bypass their conscious mind.

In our church we teach that the gifts have ceased. Thus if we found out that a person was practicing speaking in tongues, even in private, we would try counselling that person. If he would refuse counsel and refuse to be taught on the subject we would probably advise him to go to a church where he agrees with the statement of faith, because he certainly doesn't agree with ours. We need unity among the believers; unity in doctrine. And sometimes that unity has to come at the expense of either a person leaving quietly or even of church discipline.

Actually, I believe that IF the Holy Spirit grants/bestows this particular Gift...
and ALL gifts come from Him, as HE determines them to be bestowed...

That is reason why I left the Assemblies of God, as do NOT believe tongues are THE sign of second act of grace"baptism in Holy Ghost" as I believe ALL of us are baptised by Him when born again into Body of Christ... Do NOT buy healing in the Atonement, except int he sense ALL of us promised resurrected bodies one day.. he can still heal today, but its His will being done, noy MY prayers/faith forcing Him to do such... Do NOT believe that modern day Apostles/Prophets operate today etc...

So I am NOT a traditional Charasmatic/Pentacostalist...

Do think ANY tongues per Bible have to be an Earthly language, and that God would reveal the message to someone who does not know that "tongue" normally...

Is there an official baptist stance on Gifts ceasing or not, or is it a Church by Church thing?..

 

[DHK]

Actually, I believe that IF the Holy Spirit grants/bestows this particular Gift...
and ALL gifts come from Him, as HE determines them to be bestowed...

But study the Scriptures. If the gift, the Biblical gift, were in operation today, I as a missionary would not have to study any of the foreign languages I encounter (which is quite a few).
Secondly, prayer is always done in a person's mother tongue. Why would I struggle to communicate to God in prayer in a foreign language that is difficult for me, when I can communicate to him in my own language where I can most freely express my innermost thoughts?
God never granted a gift of gibberish. Gibberish is just nonsense. If anything would come from the devil it is gibberish. It is not from God. It is from man, probably a psychological phenomena, but nothing to do with God or with the biblical gift of tongues. Tongues were actual real languages--always! "How hear we every man in our own language.

That is reason why I left the Assemblies of God, as do NOT believe tongues are THE sign of second act of grace"baptism in Holy Ghost" as I believe ALL of us are baptised by Him when born again into Body of Christ... Do NOT buy healing in the Atonement, except int he sense ALL of us promised resurrected bodies one day.. he can still heal today, but its His will being done, noy MY prayers/faith forcing Him to do such... Do NOT believe that modern day Apostles/Prophets operate today etc...

Agreed, but then why hang on to the validity of tongues in a prayer language? God hears you in your own language.

So I am NOT a traditional Charasmatic/Pentacostalist...

Right, at heart you are a Baptist (I think).

Do think ANY tongues per Bible have to be an Earthly language, and that God would reveal the message to someone who does not know that "tongue" normally...

The word tongue simply means "language" as in mother 'tongue.' It has no other meaning unless you are speaking of that organ that you wag that is located in your mouth. Otherwise the word tongue should be translated "language." All languages are earthly languages. God gave us the ability to speak in languages, one aspect of mankind that makes him different than the animals. When angels came from heaven, whether in OT or in NT, they always spoke in the language of the people to whom they ministered.
The angel that spoke to Manaoh and his wife.
The angel that spoke to Joshua.
The two angels that appeared to Abraham and proceeded on to Lot.
The angel that appeared to Mary and then to Joseph.
The angel that spoke to Zechariah.
The angel that spoke to Daniel.

They all spoke in the languages that these people spoke whether it was the Hebrew language or the language of Babylon, or Assyria, or Greek, or whatever it was, it was the language of their understanding.

Is there an official baptist stance on Gifts ceasing or not, or is it a Church by Church thing?..

There is soul liberty among Baptists. Most Baptists that I know believe that tongues have ceased but not all. So one cannot say that there is an official stance. Baptists are independent which precludes an official stance on just about anything. They also believe in soul liberty, the right for another church to believe the Bible as they see fit.

 

[drfuss]

Jesusfan writes:
That is reason why I left the Assemblies of God, as do NOT believe tongues are THE sign of second act of grace"baptism in Holy Ghost" as I believe ALL of us are baptised by Him when born again into Body of Christ."

Just for clarification, the AOG does not believe in the "second work of Grace". The Pentecostal Holiness denomination believes in the "second work of grace" as well as speaking in tongues. In about 1914, the AOG was organized out of the Pentecostal Holiness movement because the AOG did not believe in the second work of grace. Most Pentecostal churches organized since that time also do not believe in the "second work of grace".

I recently talked with a Pentecostal Holiness Bible School graduate, and he said they still believe in the "second work of grace" in addition to speaking in tongues.. I can understand why the two can be confusing.

 

[JesusFan]

Jesusfan writes:
That is reason why I left the Assemblies of God, as do NOT believe tongues are THE sign of second act of grace"baptism in Holy Ghost" as I believe ALL of us are baptised by Him when born again into Body of Christ."

Just for clarification, the AOG does not believe in the "second work of Grace". The Pentecostal Holiness denomination believes in the "second work of grace" as well as speaking in tongues. In about 1914, the AOG was organized out of the Pentecostal Holiness movement because the AOG did not believe in the second work of grace. Most Pentecostal churches organized since that time also do not believe in the "second work of grace".

I recently talked with a Pentecostal Holiness Bible School graduate, and he said they still believe in the "second work of grace" in addition to speaking in tongues.. I can understand why the two can be confusing.

Thanks!

Think their official stance is that one is "indwelt" by the HS when born again, in infilled "Spirit filled" by baptism in HS, which is a distinct and second "thing" after getting saved, and tonues are THE sign you "got it!"

The "baptism in/by HS" gives you the power to witness/live for God according to the AG, and that was what confused me... I asked if that meant Billy Graham could be even "better" evangelist with that extra second stage of HS... No one could/dared to answer yes!

 

[Havensdad]

except the first time that they were 'publically" used by God was during the speech that peter made on pentacost that resulted in some 3000.00 gewtting saved that very day... Apostle pter was speaking in his "normal" tongue, his language, and the Holy Spirit "interpreted" the message so that each hearer heard the message of Jesus as the Messiah in teir own "native tongue"

So those "tongues" were language speaker knew, HS gave others the message in their 'tongues"...

I am sorry, but that is NOT what happened, friend. The description of tongues in 1 Corinthians, is EXACTLY what Acts records.


First, each person was speaking ONE different language/tongue in Acts...

Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other languages, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Second, Peter stood up and gave the interpretation, in the COMMON tongue.

Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

The description in Acts is identical to 1 Corinthians. Consider...

It is for unbelievers outside the church. Check.

Before the interpretation given by Peter, unbelievers thought the tongue speakers were out of their minds...

Act 2:13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

1Co 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

Check.

NO praying in tongues, as commanded in 1 Corinthians...

1 Corinthians 14:14-15. Check.

NO singing in tongues, as commanded in 1 Corinthians...

Check.

There is, in fact, not a single difference between Acts 2, and the proper use of the gift of languages as described in 1 Corinthians.

Another thing...why does everyone insist on calling it "tongues?" The word just means "languages"...it is the "Gift of Language." "Tongues" is just an Olde English carryover.

What verse says it of "unknown language?"

Wouldn't be much of a gift if you spoke a language you already know....

 

[JesusFan]

I am sorry, but that is NOT what happened, friend. The description of tongues in 1 Corinthians, is EXACTLY what Acts records.


First, each person was speaking ONE different language/tongue in Acts...

Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other languages, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Second, Peter stood up and gave the interpretation, in the COMMON tongue.

Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

The description in Acts is identical to 1 Corinthians. Consider...

It is for unbelievers outside the church. Check.

Before the interpretation given by Peter, unbelievers thought the tongue speakers were out of their minds...

Act 2:13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

1Co 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

Check.

NO praying in tongues, as commanded in 1 Corinthians...

1 Corinthians 14:14-15. Check.

NO singing in tongues, as commanded in 1 Corinthians...

Check.

There is, in fact, not a single difference between Acts 2, and the proper use of the gift of languages as described in 1 Corinthians.

Another thing...why does everyone insist on calling it "tongues?" The word just means "languages"...it is the "Gift of Language." "Tongues" is just an Olde English carryover.



Wouldn't be much of a gift if you spoke a language you already know....

Thanks for you posting...

I am 'almost" in Spiritual shock, so to speak, to realise that when I reread the verses in Acts that it was just as you described, not what I remembered it saying !

per your answers and DHK, have been forced to re evaluate what my positions are on tongues and spiritual gifts...

 

[stilllearning]

Hello Jesusfan & DHK & revmwc & Havensdad & drfuss ...........

Some might think, that this conversation had hijacked this thread, but it didn’t:
In fact, it was right to the point.

The question......what ever happened to sound Doctrine, has been answered.........
Sound Doctrine disappears, as people get away from the Word of God.
(Even if your saved!)

This is why preachers are told to “preach the Word”......
2 Timothy 4:2-4
V.2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
V.3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
V.4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

God knew that in these last days, God’s people would be getting away from His Word;
(By way of not paying CLOSE ATTENTION to “every word that came out of the mouth of God”.)

Therefore we depart from Sound Doctrine.
------------------------------------
So lets keep preaching the Word, even when it is “out of season”!


Also, Jesusfan, I am praising the Lord, that your eyes have been opened.
This demonstrates just how important, Sound Doctrine really is.

 

[revmwc]

Hello Jesusfan & DHK & revmwc & Havensdad & drfuss ...........

Some might think, that this conversation had hijacked this thread, but it didn’t:
In fact, it was right to the point.

The question......what ever happened to sound Doctrine, has been answered.........
Sound Doctrine disappears, as people get away from the Word of God.
(Even if your saved!)

This is why preachers are told to “preach the Word”......
2 Timothy 4:2-4
V.2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
V.3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
V.4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

God knew that in these last days, God’s people would be getting away from His Word;
(By way of not paying CLOSE ATTENTION to “every word that came out of the mouth of God”.)

Therefore we depart from Sound Doctrine.
------------------------------------
So lets keep preaching the Word, even when it is “out of season”!


Also, Jesusfan, I am praising the Lord, that your eyes have been opened.
This demonstrates just how important, Sound Doctrine really is.

God has always and will always have areminant that hold fast the truth of HIS WORD.