What every anti-calvinist needs to know

[William C]

Originally posted by KenH:
Call it hardening, inability, depravity, whatever. The result is the same. You can argue into the air over semantics until you are blue in the face as far as I care.

Translation: I'm so stubborn I couldn't learn anything new about what the bible says no matter what you say!

That is sad.

So you take the position that hardening and depravity are one in the same?

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
So you take the position that hardening and depravity are one in the same?

Nope.

 

[William C]

So you believe that makes Jesus' audience unable to believe through total depravity and hardening?

 

[KenH]

Every person is conceived unable to come to Jesus without being regenerated. Not every person is hardened either by being allowed to delve further into sin or proactively by God as in the case of Pharoah. Certainly a case can be made that John the Baptist was never hardened as he leaped in his mother's womb when he heard the voice of Mary. But a like case cannot be made that he was not conceived unable to come to Jesus as regeneration can take place in the womb or else those who are aborted or die in the womb from natural causes would not be saved. But they are saved; therefore, they must have been regenerated before they die. My God is able to deliver them.

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by KenH:
Every person is conceived unable to come to Jesus without being regenerated. Not every person is hardened either by being allowed to delve further into sin or proactively by God as in the case of Pharoah. Certainly a case can be made that John the Baptist was never hardened as he leaped in his mother's womb when he heard the voice of Mary. But a like case cannot be made that he was not conceived unable to come to Jesus as regeneration can take place in the womb or else those who are aborted or die in the womb from natural causes would not be saved. But they are saved; therefore, they must have been regenerated before they die. My God is able to deliver them.

Amen.

Proverbs 14:25  ¶A true witness delivereth souls: but a deceitful witness speaketh lies.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

The truth cuts both ways.

How do you deal with this?

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />5) Calvinists do believe in man's responsibility, but deny his ability to repent and believe the gospel. The two terms are not synonymous. Calvinists believe that man's inability to repent and believe are caused by his own sin ... not any positive imposition on God's part.

Then Calvinists do not have the mind of Christ who tells men to repent and believe, knowing they have the ability. He does not impose a responsibility on those without the ability to carry out the responsibility.
Who is in contrast to God?</font>[/QUOTE]

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />8) Calvinists do believe that it is the duty of men to repent and believe the gospel. This is one of our quarrels with the Hyper Calvinists.

If the duty, then how is that duty carried out without the ability (see 5 above)</font>[/QUOTE]You do see the problem here do you not? Having the responsibility and the Duty require having the ability. God's Justice is harsh, but deserved, and He is fair and exceedingly patient in his dealings with his creation. He does not unfairly judge or penalize man. He gives ample warning and ample time for man to carry out his responsiblities and duties.

 

[Frogman]

He gives ample warning and ample time for man to carry out his responsiblities and duties.

What I have placed in bold is the real contradiction in terms. If God provides ample time and ample opportunity then it is wrong for men to implore, to beg, to plead, for the lost to believe before it is eternally too late. Do you see the difficulty you proclaim? If there is ample time provided, then who's invention is it of such urgency being placed on believing?

Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Frogman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />He gives ample warning and ample time for man to carry out his responsiblities and duties.

What I have placed in bold is the real contradiction in terms. If God provides ample time and ample opportunity then it is wrong for men to implore, to beg, to plead, for the lost to believe before it is eternally too late. Do you see the difficulty you proclaim? If there is ample time provided, then who's invention is it of such urgency being placed on believing?

Bro. Dallas </font>[/QUOTE]There is no Contradiction in terms. God appointed man to have 120 years of natural life. His warnings are ever present among us. The urgency is that in our societies, one never knows about accidents, and events overwhich they have no control. Man is most often and innocently so in the path of harms way, whether by ignorance or by the control of other men, such as war, such as plane, train, or shipwrecks, where the passengers are not in control. Volcano's, Earthquakes, Tornado's, Hurricane's, floods, etc. are also not under man's control but are part of God's creation set in motion and left to run their courses. Man is at the mercy of such forces whether or not you believe those forces are under the direct control or indirect control of God. Therein lies the urgency, because there is no certainty that any man will reach 120 years. The current average is 74 years. Even so, 74 years is ample time to hear the warnings and repent.

There will be no excuses before the Judgment throne, you are either saved by faith in God (Jesus), or you are not, by your own refusal to believe and repent. Yes, it is that simple!

 

[William C]

Originally posted by KenH:
Every person is conceived unable to come to Jesus without being regenerated.

Scripture?

Not every person is hardened either by being allowed to delve further into sin or proactively by God as in the case of Pharoah. Certainly a case can be made that John the Baptist was never hardened as he leaped in his mother's womb when he heard the voice of Mary. But a like case cannot be made that he was not conceived unable to come to Jesus as regeneration can take place in the womb or else those who are aborted or die in the womb from natural causes would not be saved. But they are saved; therefore, they must have been regenerated before they die. My God is able to deliver them.

You didn't really address my argument.

Why would God harden the Pharisees spoken of in John 12 if they were already unable to believe because of Total depravity?

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
1)Scripture?

2)You didn't really address my argument.

1)John 6:44, John 6:65.

2)I am sorry but I sincerely thought I did. I must confess that for whatever reason I unable to address your arguments in a manner that is satisfactory to you for you to not continually make the charge against me that I do not address your arguments. I seriously doubt I will ever be able to do so. Please forgive me.

 

[Frogman]

Maybe he is a postmaster and is looking for a self-addressed envelope???

 

[William C]

Originally posted by KenH:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brother Bill:
1)Scripture?

2)You didn't really address my argument.

1)John 6:44, John 6:65.

2)I am sorry but I sincerely thought I did. I must confess that for whatever reason I unable to address your arguments in a manner that is satisfactory to you for you to not continually make the charge against me that I do not address your arguments. I seriously doubt I will ever be able to do so. Please forgive me. </font>[/QUOTE]1. Nothing is said about regenration in John 6
2. I forgive you.

 

[KenH]

John 6:65(NASB)
65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

Jesus talks about the granting of the ability to come by the Father. Which means no one can come unless it is granted by the Father. And if this is something granted to everyone who ever lives on this earth, then there would no point in Jesus stating it as He did twice in John chapter 6.

 

[William C]

Originally posted by KenH:
John 6:65(NASB)
65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

Jesus talks about the granting of the ability to come by the Father. Which means no one can come unless it is granted by the Father. And if this is something granted to everyone who ever lives on this earth, then there would no point in Jesus stating it as He did twice in John chapter 6.

To how many men was it granted to be apostles? How many did God give to Jesus to train and send out while here on earth? How many were allowed to come to Jesus in the flesh and learn from him personally?

Answer: The twelve, and one of them was the betrayer.

Ken, you must understand that the historical context of John 6 was unique. Jesus was hiding the gospel from some Israelites and revealing it to a few. Some of the Jews were being chosen for 'noble purposes', others were being temporarlly hardened into 'common use' until God's purposes were accomplished. Listen to what Jesus said in Matt. 13:

9 Anyone who has ears should listen!" 10 Then the disciples came up and asked Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?" 11 He answered them, "To know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been granted to you, but to them it has not been granted. 12 For whoever has, more will be given to him, and he will have more than enough. But whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13 For this reason I speak to them in parables, because looking they do not see, and hearing they do not listen or understand. 14 In them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says: You will listen and listen, yet never understand; and you will look and look, yet never perceive.

Calvinists often wrongly use the phrase, "He who has ears should listen" as a support text for their views thinking that Jesus must be refering to the elect who have spiritual ears, but it is apparent that is not the context. Those who have ears are those in Israel who God has chosen to carry the message to the world, the rest are hardened.

Now, look back at the context of John 6 and notice how the betrayer is mentioned and Christ's choosing of the 12 is mentioned and ask yourself, "Could verses 44 and 65 relate to the context around it and the historical context of the day and be in reference to those God had granted to come and learn the message from Christ while in the flesh?"

Think about it. Jesus is speaking to Israel. We know that there are two types of people in Israel, the hardened and the remnant (Roman 10-11). The remnant were those Israelites that God chose not to hardened, but instead chose to use for the noble purpose of being a divine messenger.

(BTW, I believe this is what Paul is refering to in Romans 9 when he says, "Can the potter create some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use." He is speaking about the fact that most of his Israelites brothers are being hardened but he and the other Israelite apostles have been selected for a noble purpose. The objections would be, "That's not fair" and "Who resists God's will?" Paul anticipates these objections by refering to God's choosing of Jacob over Esau (not merely for salvation but for a noble purpose) and he also refers to Pharoah as an example of someone hardened (again, not about salvation but about accomplishing a noble purpose). If you notice in Romans 11 hardened Israel might be saved.)

 

[Frogman]

To how many men was it granted to be apostles? How many did God give to Jesus to train and send out while here on earth? How many were allowed to come to Jesus in the flesh and learn from him personally?

Your teaching continues to strain scripture.

Luke 10:1  ¶After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.
Luke 10:16  He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
Luke 10:17  ¶And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

Jesus was given twelve of whom he set first in the church. But scripture is pretty plain that others were also sent before him.

Bro. Dallas

 

[KenH]

John 6:65-67(NASB)
65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”
66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.
67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?”

We see here that Jesus had been addressing those who had been following Him and listening to His teaching, not just the apostles, for thousands of others were also listening(he had just finished feeding about 5000 men, not counting the women).

Jesus gave them some very tough teaching for them to swallow in John chapter 6 and Jesus clearly tells all of these thousands that they could not come to Him unless it was granted unto them by His Father. And because of this, many of those who had been following Him ceased doing so.

Jesus then even asked the apostles if they wanted to go away, also. But it had been granted by the Father for the apostles to come to Jesus and they stayed. Even Judas Iscariot stayed as He was appointed by God to betray Jesus; so even though he had not been regenerated Judas stayed to fulfill his part in God's plan to bring about the salvation of His people when Jesus paid the full penalty for their sin on the cross.

 

[William C]

Originally posted by KenH:
John 6:65-67(NASB)
65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”
66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.
67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?”

We see here that Jesus had been addressing those who had been following Him and listening to His teaching, not just the apostles, for thousands of others were also listening(he had just finished feeding about 5000 men, not counting the women).

Jesus gave them some very tough teaching for them to swallow in John chapter 6 and Jesus clearly tells all of these thousands that they could not come to Him unless it was granted unto them by His Father. And because of this, many of those who had been following Him ceased doing so.

Jesus then even asked the apostles if they wanted to go away, also. But it had been granted by the Father for the apostles to come to Jesus and they stayed. Even Judas Iscariot stayed as He was appointed by God to betray Jesus; so even though he had not been regenerated Judas stayed to fulfill his part in God's plan to bring about the salvation of His people when Jesus paid the full penalty for their sin on the cross.

Ken, you proved my point for me. I never said he was just addressing his apostles I said that he was refering to the apostles as the ones who were granted to come to him by the father, he was addressing the crowd. So, just as you explained here the rest were not able to come to Jesus in the flesh, but only the apostles were.

Thanks for understanding the context and showing my point to be valid.

 

[Yelsew]

John 6:41. Meanwhile the Jews were complaining to each other about him, because he had said, "I am the bread that has come down from heaven."
42. They were saying, "Surely this is Jesus son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know. How can he now say, `I have come down from heaven?' "
43. Jesus said in reply to them, "Stop complaining to each other, 44. No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me, and I will raise that person up on the last day. 45. It is written in the prophets: They will all be taught by God; everyone who has listened to the Father, and learnt from him, comes to me.(faith cometh by hearing)

(Parens mine)The gentiles do not have prophets! Therefore, this is spoken to the Jews for the benefit and determination of who among the Jews will come to Jesus. It is ALL who listened to the Father, and learnt from him. Typically, the Apostles and other disciples, those who, out of the many who were following Jesus, stayed with Him, adhering to His teachings.

John 6:59. This is what he taught at Capernaum in the synagogue. (Same synagog as in verses 41-46)
60. After hearing it, many of his followers said, "This is intolerable language. How could anyone accept it?"
61. Jesus was aware that his followers were complaining about it and said, "Does this disturb you?
62. What if you should see the Son of man ascend to where he was before?
63. `It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh has nothing to offer. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.
64. `But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the outset who did not believe and who was to betray him.
65. He went on, "This is why I told you that no one could come to me except by the gift of the Father."
66. After this, many of his disciples went away and accompanied him no more.

Talk about falling away? In the very presence of the Messiah they did not believe what Jesus was telling them so they left, no longer believing in Jesus. Are they still saved having once believed, but now departing from the truth? They stopped being disciples

disciple, n., v., -pled, -pling.
—n.
1. Relig.
a. one of the 12 personal followers of Christ.
b. one of the 70 followers sent forth by Christ. Luke 10:1.
c. any other professed follower of Christ in His lifetime.
2. any follower of Christ.
3. (cap.) a member of the Disciples of Christ.
4. a person who is a pupil or an adherent of the doctrines of another; follower: a disciple of Freud.

 

[William C]

Originally posted by Frogman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> To how many men was it granted to be apostles? How many did God give to Jesus to train and send out while here on earth? How many were allowed to come to Jesus in the flesh and learn from him personally?

Your teaching continues to strain scripture.

Luke 10:1  ¶After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.
Luke 10:16  He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
Luke 10:17  ¶And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

Jesus was given twelve of whom he set first in the church. But scripture is pretty plain that others were also sent before him.
</font>[/QUOTE]Dallas, I'm not arguing that the 12 were the only disciples, I'm arguing that they were the only apostles. There is a difference.

The apostles were given a unique authority and were inspired to preach and write the scriptures as eye witnesses of Christ's teachings. In John 6 these are the ones that are being discussed as being given to the son by the father just as in John 17.

I don't deny that later Jesus has other disciples, so I'm really not sure where you are going with this.

 

[William C]

Originally posted by Yelsew:

66. After this, many of his disciples went away and accompanied him no more.

Talk about falling away? In the very presence of the Messiah they did not believe what Jesus was telling them so they left, no longer believing in Jesus. Are they still saved having once believed, but now departing from the truth? They stopped being disciples

disciple, n., v., -pled, -pling.
—n.
1. Relig.
a. one of the 12 personal followers of Christ.
b. one of the 70 followers sent forth by Christ. Luke 10:1.
c. any other professed follower of Christ in His lifetime.
2. any follower of Christ.
3. (cap.) a member of the Disciples of Christ.
4. a person who is a pupil or an adherent of the doctrines of another; follower: a disciple of Freud.

[/QUOTE] Yelsew, I hear what you are saying here and this is one possible understanding of this text. But I think there could be one other rendering as well. John could mean that they stopped being his disciples in that they stopped following him for that time. Its possible that some of these "disciples" came back when it was the time appointed by God for them to be granted to do so. Remember that it was the Jewish crowds that crucified Jesus, that purpose had to be fulfilled which is one of the reasons these people were hardened. Later however many of those who crucified the Christ believed as Acts records.