What every anti-calvinist needs to know

[Felix]

I truly believe that if approaching the calvinist/arminian issue simply by going to reason first and then to Scripture, we could go on arguing for weeks or even months. I have done that in the past too many times and it is not my intention to open that can of worms again here.

It is my firm conviction that Scripture teaches unconditional election and that man is born spiritually blind. The wisest thing we could do is to bring Scripture into our arguments and learn from it. I am aware of the few (3 main ones) verses that seem to prove the arminian side. However these verses carry little weight in the whole picture as opposed to the tons of verses for which arminians have no way to get around....

Let's just start with John 3:3 "Most assuredly I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God". First, we are born again from above, only then can we see the kingdom of God after which we repent and gain assurance of salvation. Arminians have turned this verse on its head...According to them, first we see the kingdom of God, then we repent and only then we are born again....

I am here to learn and to grow,
Respectfully in Christ

Pardi

 

[Eric B]

I truly believe that if approaching the calvinist/arminian issue simply by going to reason first and then to Scripture, we could go on arguing for weeks or even months.

The wisest thing we could do is to bring Scripture into our arguments and learn from it. I am aware of the few (3 main ones) verses that seem to prove the arminian side. However these verses carry little weight in the whole picture as opposed to the tons of verses for which arminians have no way to get around....

Those scriptures have been explained from the other POV as well, and it is possible that the Calvinists may have approached them with reason first, which made them appear to support their side (e.g. if Salvation is of God, then free will makes it of man; if man is spiritually dead, then he cannot repent, etc.)

 

[LandonL]

So you don't think there is any such thing as a true atheist? Interesting.

I don't see how anyone could be an atheist. It's logically impossible. To make the statement "there is no God," one would have to know everything there is to know. To know everything there is to know one would have to BE God. The best they could be is agnostic.

 

[Felix]

Those scriptures have been explained from the other POV as well, and it is possible that the Calvinists may have approached them with reason first, which made them appear to support their side (e.g. if Salvation is of God, then free will makes it of man; if man is spiritually dead, then he cannot repent, etc.)

Would you please give us some references where these explanations may be read? Why not give us an example and exegete the above mentioned verse for a start....and we can contine with the rest of the Scripture. We have plenty of space and time.

Of course all of us need to use reason to interpret Scripture. The issue is which one sits in the driver's seat....

Again, just to mention a few for which I have not yet seen a convincing exegesis from the 'other site': Gen 6:5; John 6:44,45,65,66; John 10:26; Rom 9:15-23; Gal 5:22; Eph 1:4,5; 2:8; Acts 4:28; 5:31; 13:48; 16:14. These are really just a few!!!

Serving Him gladly

Pardi

 

[Eric B]

Those scriptures have been discussed all over the board. Romans 9 has been explained so much that it is not even thrown around as much as it used to be, but for your example, this chapter is discussing Israel as a group versus the body of believers. One group God made for a purpose to show his glory, but not for salvation. It's the other group that are the "vessels of mercy", and Paul uses the example of Pharaoh and Isaac/Esau to represent groups to show how God chooses them unconditionally for different purposes. It has nothing to do with unconditional election or preterition to damnation of individuals.

Calvinists may not be satisfied with answers like this, but you cannot say that we "have no way to get around" [the implications Calvinists read into the scriptures]

 

[NarrowWay]

Posted edited for improper handling of complaints. If you have questions about the moderating, then please direct to me via PM. I will be glad to take the time to answer them that way and clear up any confusion you might have.

[ June 28, 2003, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]