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what exactly can free will do?
- Thread starter Brutus
- Start date
KenH
Well-Known Member
Good advice, romanbear. I just did. Here is what it says in Easton's Bible Dictionary:
Regeneration — only found in Matt. 19:28 and Titus 3:5. This word literally means a “new birth.” The Greek word so rendered (palingenesia) is used by classical writers with reference to the changes produced by the return of spring. In Matt. 19:28 the word is equivalent to the “restitution of all things” (Acts 3:21). In Titus 3:5 it denotes that change of heart elsewhere spoken of as a passing from death to life (1 John 3:14); becoming a new creature in Christ Jesus (2 Cor. 5:17); being born again (John 3:5); a renewal of the mind (Rom. 12:2); a resurrection from the dead (Eph. 2:6); a being quickened (2:1, 5).
This change is ascribed to the Holy Spirit. It originates not with man but with God (John 1:12, 13; 1 John 2:29; 5:1, 4).
As to the nature of the change, it consists in the implanting of a new principle or disposition in the soul; the impartation of spiritual life to those who are by nature “dead in trespasses and sins.”
The necessity of such a change is emphatically affirmed in Scripture (John 3:3; Rom. 7:18; 8:7–9; 1 Cor. 2:14; Eph. 2:1; 4:21–24).
Ray Berrian
New Member
We do not sell soap. We witness to the Gospel. [Mark 16:15 & 16] because we know that Jesus has died for everyone.[I John 2:2] It is our responsibility to be ambassadors [II Cor. 5:20] for Him. We have a view like President Bush and his educational plan. We believe that 'no one should be left behind,' and that He has ' . . . given to us the ministry of reconciliation.' [II Cor. 5:18]
I can understand if a person does not believe that Jesus died for everyone, it might be easy to sit home and sell nothing.
I can understand if a person does not believe that Jesus died for everyone, it might be easy to sit home and sell nothing.
KenH
Well-Known Member
Ray,
How did you ever come up with that idea.
It's too bad you can't deal honestly with the teachings of God's amazing grace. Do you also go around asking all married men if they have stopped beating their wives? Because that is your method of argumentation against the doctrines of God's amazing grace.Hi Brutus;
This is why;
"2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
If we are to be Christ like then are we to be unwilling that any should perish, We should all pray for the lost because of our compassion for our neighbors. It's call love thy neighbor. We do not ask that God do something against the freewill of the person we are praying for. We pray for the drawing of the Holy Spirit, that God won't give up on them.
I have to ask this of you. Why do some Calvinist hate prayer? Is it because they don't really believe that there prayers will be answered? Some Calvinist have expressed hatred for the sinners prayer. Now it seems they also hate prayer for the lost. Are you so convinced that because you believe everything is already predestined that you figure what's the use. This is really sad when man is so convinced that there is no use. Exactly what Satan want's all of us to think. Satan hates prayer.
Prayer is what connect us to God it is a form of worship. If you don't pray for others are you really loving them?. What better way is there to love someone than to pray for them? The greatist miracles that have happened to me in my life have been a direct result of prayer. It is the Greatist gift there is because without it you don't have God, plain and simple.
Romanbear
This is why;
"2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
If we are to be Christ like then are we to be unwilling that any should perish, We should all pray for the lost because of our compassion for our neighbors. It's call love thy neighbor. We do not ask that God do something against the freewill of the person we are praying for. We pray for the drawing of the Holy Spirit, that God won't give up on them.
I have to ask this of you. Why do some Calvinist hate prayer? Is it because they don't really believe that there prayers will be answered? Some Calvinist have expressed hatred for the sinners prayer. Now it seems they also hate prayer for the lost. Are you so convinced that because you believe everything is already predestined that you figure what's the use. This is really sad when man is so convinced that there is no use. Exactly what Satan want's all of us to think. Satan hates prayer.
Prayer is what connect us to God it is a form of worship. If you don't pray for others are you really loving them?. What better way is there to love someone than to pray for them? The greatist miracles that have happened to me in my life have been a direct result of prayer. It is the Greatist gift there is because without it you don't have God, plain and simple.
Romanbear
Hi Ken;
a quote from you;
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Regeneration — only found in Matt. 19:28 and Titus 3:5. This word literally means a “new birth.” The Greek word so rendered (palingenesia) is used by classical writers with reference to the changes produced by the return of spring. In Matt. 19:28 the word is equivalent to the “restitution of all things” (Acts 3:21). In Titus 3:5 it denotes that change of heart elsewhere spoken of as a passing from death to life (1 John 3:14); becoming a new creature in Christ Jesus (2 Cor. 5:17); being born again (John 3:5); a renewal of the mind (Rom. 12:2); a resurrection from the dead (Eph. 2:6); a being quickened (2:1, 5).
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Ken, all this means saved. This is what born again means, it means saved.
Romanbear
a quote from you;
------------------------------------------
Regeneration — only found in Matt. 19:28 and Titus 3:5. This word literally means a “new birth.” The Greek word so rendered (palingenesia) is used by classical writers with reference to the changes produced by the return of spring. In Matt. 19:28 the word is equivalent to the “restitution of all things” (Acts 3:21). In Titus 3:5 it denotes that change of heart elsewhere spoken of as a passing from death to life (1 John 3:14); becoming a new creature in Christ Jesus (2 Cor. 5:17); being born again (John 3:5); a renewal of the mind (Rom. 12:2); a resurrection from the dead (Eph. 2:6); a being quickened (2:1, 5).
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Ken, all this means saved. This is what born again means, it means saved.
Romanbear
Ray Berrian
New Member
Ken H,
You spoke of the 'teaching of God's amazing grace in your post. There is little that is amazing about a distorted view of grace that says that only the few will be saved, because of some kind of god who for His own pleasure and alleged glory willingly, damns the vast, vast, majority.
Amazing grace is preached and taught in our circles as grace that is offered to all sinners. All a sinner has to do is to ask God to help him turn from sin, and to believe in His power to perform this spiritual event. No one is left behind only those who willingly remain in their rebellion and sins. This view of Amazing Grace and is not desecrated with a deformed theological view coming out of the darkness of a medieval Roman Catholic perspective from the hands of St. Augustine. The reason why this period is called the Dark Ages is because of the lack of enlightenment both in the spiritual realm but probably more predominantly in the social and intellectual realm.
You spoke of the 'teaching of God's amazing grace in your post. There is little that is amazing about a distorted view of grace that says that only the few will be saved, because of some kind of god who for His own pleasure and alleged glory willingly, damns the vast, vast, majority.
Amazing grace is preached and taught in our circles as grace that is offered to all sinners. All a sinner has to do is to ask God to help him turn from sin, and to believe in His power to perform this spiritual event. No one is left behind only those who willingly remain in their rebellion and sins. This view of Amazing Grace and is not desecrated with a deformed theological view coming out of the darkness of a medieval Roman Catholic perspective from the hands of St. Augustine. The reason why this period is called the Dark Ages is because of the lack of enlightenment both in the spiritual realm but probably more predominantly in the social and intellectual realm.
Romanbear: Do you hear(read) what you're saying? No where on here have I expressed a hatred for prayer! It's too bad that that's the only response that you could come up with!
The question was,being asked by Arminians of Calvinists "why pray,if God has predestined some to be His sons and chosen them before the foundation of the world(Eph.1:4-5),then what's the point in praying for anyone's conversion?
The question was then flipped to ask the Arminian if you believe in free will(self-determination)why pray for them? What do you want God to do for them? You can't ask that God overcome their rebellion,because rebellion is exactly what they are now choosing,so that would mean God overcame their choice and took away their power of free will(self-determination).But,how can God save them unless He act so as to change their heart from hard hostility to tender trust?
What I'm saying is that it is not the doctrine of God's sovereignty which thwarts prayer for the conversion of sinners.On the contrary,it is the un-biblical notion of free will(self-determination)which would consistently put an end to all prayers for the lost.Prayer is a request that GOD do something.But the only thing God can do to save a lost sinner is to overcome their resistence to God.If you insist that they retain their free will(self-determination),then you are insisting that they remain without Christ. For "no one can come to Christ unless it is given him from the Father"(Jn.6:44,65).
The question was,being asked by Arminians of Calvinists "why pray,if God has predestined some to be His sons and chosen them before the foundation of the world(Eph.1:4-5),then what's the point in praying for anyone's conversion?
The question was then flipped to ask the Arminian if you believe in free will(self-determination)why pray for them? What do you want God to do for them? You can't ask that God overcome their rebellion,because rebellion is exactly what they are now choosing,so that would mean God overcame their choice and took away their power of free will(self-determination).But,how can God save them unless He act so as to change their heart from hard hostility to tender trust?
What I'm saying is that it is not the doctrine of God's sovereignty which thwarts prayer for the conversion of sinners.On the contrary,it is the un-biblical notion of free will(self-determination)which would consistently put an end to all prayers for the lost.Prayer is a request that GOD do something.But the only thing God can do to save a lost sinner is to overcome their resistence to God.If you insist that they retain their free will(self-determination),then you are insisting that they remain without Christ. For "no one can come to Christ unless it is given him from the Father"(Jn.6:44,65).
KenH
Well-Known Member
Ray,
Why do keep posting obvious nonsense? It has been proven in this forum that the Roman Catholic Church did not exist in the form in which we refer to it today. And, by the way, Augustine didn't live in medieval times. He lived well before King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table.
Ray Berrian
New Member
Brutus,
Everything has been done to win the lost to Christ. The atonement is all inclusive and perfect. He died for the sins of everyone. [I John 2:2] The Holy Spirit and the church continually beckons all sinners to return home to God. [Revelation 22:17]
Hypothetically, if God has hand picked His elect no amount of prayers will change His decretive choice. But, free will can always be approached because the it is His will to change the heart of all those who hear the Gospel. The Spirit convicts and convinces of a person's need of Jesus. [John 16:8]
The verse, 'No one can come to God accept it be given to Him of the Father' means that indeed it is the will of the Father and only He can minister His work of bringing men and women to Christ. If your view were correct, Revelation 22:17 would not have ever been written to the reader of the Word of God.
Everything has been done to win the lost to Christ. The atonement is all inclusive and perfect. He died for the sins of everyone. [I John 2:2] The Holy Spirit and the church continually beckons all sinners to return home to God. [Revelation 22:17]
Hypothetically, if God has hand picked His elect no amount of prayers will change His decretive choice. But, free will can always be approached because the it is His will to change the heart of all those who hear the Gospel. The Spirit convicts and convinces of a person's need of Jesus. [John 16:8]
The verse, 'No one can come to God accept it be given to Him of the Father' means that indeed it is the will of the Father and only He can minister His work of bringing men and women to Christ. If your view were correct, Revelation 22:17 would not have ever been written to the reader of the Word of God.
Ray Berrian
New Member
Ken H,
It has been documented and proven to your brethren that Augustine indeed was considered from the Roman Catholic Church or otherwise, said church, would have pointed back to him as being in the 'catholic'/universal church or out of the the era of the latter Fathers of the church.
I have proven to you even from Reformed writers that Calvin drank most heartily from the writings of St. Augustine.
Dr. R.C. Sproul writes that "virtually nothing in John Calvin's view of predestination . . . was not first in Martin Luther, and before Luther in Augustine." R.C. Sproul "Grace Unknown" Baker Books, 1997, p.189. You do know that Dr. Sproul is an extreme Calvinist don't you?
It has been documented and proven to your brethren that Augustine indeed was considered from the Roman Catholic Church or otherwise, said church, would have pointed back to him as being in the 'catholic'/universal church or out of the the era of the latter Fathers of the church.
I have proven to you even from Reformed writers that Calvin drank most heartily from the writings of St. Augustine.
Dr. R.C. Sproul writes that "virtually nothing in John Calvin's view of predestination . . . was not first in Martin Luther, and before Luther in Augustine." R.C. Sproul "Grace Unknown" Baker Books, 1997, p.189. You do know that Dr. Sproul is an extreme Calvinist don't you?
Ok, if we want to get back on topic here let me attempt to answer the original question of this post: "What exactly can free will do?"
Let me preface this by saying the only truely free will is God's will. He has all power and knowledge therefore his will is not limited, our will is limited by what the creator has allowed within our God given abilities--that is what I mean when I say "free will" --I mean the will God has given to us, His creation, which as even stayed with us following the Fall of man. Even more specificall,y the ability of man in regard to responding to the gospel.
I believe this is clearly demonstrated for us in Acts 28:24-28:
Some were persuaded by what he said, but others did not believe. Disagreeing among themselves, they began to leave after Paul made one statement: "The Holy Spirit correctly spoke through the prophet Isaiah to your forefathers when He said, Go to this people and say: 'You will listen and listen, yet never understand; and you will look and look, yet never perceive. For this people's heart has grown callous, their ears are hard of hearing, and they have shut their eyes; otherwise they might see with their eyes and hear with their ears, understand with their heart, and be converted--and I would heal them.' Therefore, let it be known to you that this saving work of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will listen!"
Notice the word "otherwise" shows us what man's ability would be had they not been hardened by God. "They might see...hear...understand with their heart, and be converted." There is man's ability clearly laid out for all to see! The only thing that would prevent this ability is God's purposeful and active hardening. This is clearly the reason that Israel in John 12:37-41 cannot believe in Christ's message. In opposition to the hardened Israelites are the Gentiles "who will listen!"
Let me preface this by saying the only truely free will is God's will. He has all power and knowledge therefore his will is not limited, our will is limited by what the creator has allowed within our God given abilities--that is what I mean when I say "free will" --I mean the will God has given to us, His creation, which as even stayed with us following the Fall of man. Even more specificall,y the ability of man in regard to responding to the gospel.
I believe this is clearly demonstrated for us in Acts 28:24-28:
Some were persuaded by what he said, but others did not believe. Disagreeing among themselves, they began to leave after Paul made one statement: "The Holy Spirit correctly spoke through the prophet Isaiah to your forefathers when He said, Go to this people and say: 'You will listen and listen, yet never understand; and you will look and look, yet never perceive. For this people's heart has grown callous, their ears are hard of hearing, and they have shut their eyes; otherwise they might see with their eyes and hear with their ears, understand with their heart, and be converted--and I would heal them.' Therefore, let it be known to you that this saving work of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will listen!"
Notice the word "otherwise" shows us what man's ability would be had they not been hardened by God. "They might see...hear...understand with their heart, and be converted." There is man's ability clearly laid out for all to see! The only thing that would prevent this ability is God's purposeful and active hardening. This is clearly the reason that Israel in John 12:37-41 cannot believe in Christ's message. In opposition to the hardened Israelites are the Gentiles "who will listen!"
Bro. Bill,
Your post places in some an ability which the others would not have, whereas total depravity speaks to all people and not just some.
Your belief relies upon the interpretation of 'will listen' and specifically the act of listening as being equal to hearing. To listen is something much different.
An example, though poor, is the UN and George Bush. Mr. Bush and his administration are declaring to the world the need to depose Saddam Hussein, everyone is listening, but not everyone hears the same urgency in the message they are listening to.
To get back to the issue, the same is true at Acts 28.28, These gentiles will listen, but this does not mean they are able to hear and believe the message of their own will. This still requires the power of the Holy Spirit to regenerate them.
God Bless.
Bro. Dallas
Your post places in some an ability which the others would not have, whereas total depravity speaks to all people and not just some.
Your belief relies upon the interpretation of 'will listen' and specifically the act of listening as being equal to hearing. To listen is something much different.
An example, though poor, is the UN and George Bush. Mr. Bush and his administration are declaring to the world the need to depose Saddam Hussein, everyone is listening, but not everyone hears the same urgency in the message they are listening to.
To get back to the issue, the same is true at Acts 28.28, These gentiles will listen, but this does not mean they are able to hear and believe the message of their own will. This still requires the power of the Holy Spirit to regenerate them.
God Bless.
Bro. Dallas
Ray Berrian
New Member
Ken H,
You are correct WE are off topic. I was merely responding to your view about Augustine. I must have hit a 'nerve' and really communicated with you.
You are correct WE are off topic. I was merely responding to your view about Augustine. I must have hit a 'nerve' and really communicated with you.
Ray Berrian
New Member
Sorry, Ken H, my message on March 13 at 11:18 was to have been sent to Brutus.