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what exactly can free will do?
- Thread starter Brutus
- Start date
Back to the topic at hand: When I pray I don't ask God to sit back and wait for my neighbor to decide to change. Nor do I suggest to God that He keep His distance lest His beauty become irresistible and violate my neighbor's power of self-determination(free will). No! I pray that He ravish my unbelieving neighbor with His beauty,that He unshackle the enslaved will,that He make the dead alive and that He suffer no resistance to stop Him lest my neighbor perish.
So when asked by the Arminian;If God chose before the foundation of the world who would be converted,what function does your prayer have?
My answer is that it has a function like that of preaching: "How shall the lost believe in whom they have not heard,and how shall they hear without a preacher,and how shall they preach unless they are sent(Rom.10:14-15)? Belief in Christ is a gift of God(Jn.6:65;2Tim.2:25;Eph.2:8),but God has ordained that the means by which men believe on Jesus is through the preaching of men.
It is simply naive to say that if no one spread the gospel all those predestined to be sons of God(Eph.1:5) would be converted anyway. The reason that this is naive is because it overlooks the fact that the preaching of the gospel is just as predestined as is the believing of the gospel.
Paul was set apart for his preaching ministry before he was born(Gal.1:15),as was Jeremiah(Jer.1:5). Therefore to ask ,"If we don't evangelize,will the elect be saved?" Is like asking "If there is no predestination,will the predestined be saved?"
God knows those who are in His hand and He will raise up messengers to win them. If someone refuses to be a part of that plan,because he dislikes the idea of being tampered with before he was born,then he will be the loser,not God and not the elect. You will certainly carry out God's purpose however you act,but it makes a difference to you whether you serve like Judas or like John!
So when asked by the Arminian;If God chose before the foundation of the world who would be converted,what function does your prayer have?
My answer is that it has a function like that of preaching: "How shall the lost believe in whom they have not heard,and how shall they hear without a preacher,and how shall they preach unless they are sent(Rom.10:14-15)? Belief in Christ is a gift of God(Jn.6:65;2Tim.2:25;Eph.2:8),but God has ordained that the means by which men believe on Jesus is through the preaching of men.
It is simply naive to say that if no one spread the gospel all those predestined to be sons of God(Eph.1:5) would be converted anyway. The reason that this is naive is because it overlooks the fact that the preaching of the gospel is just as predestined as is the believing of the gospel.
Paul was set apart for his preaching ministry before he was born(Gal.1:15),as was Jeremiah(Jer.1:5). Therefore to ask ,"If we don't evangelize,will the elect be saved?" Is like asking "If there is no predestination,will the predestined be saved?"
God knows those who are in His hand and He will raise up messengers to win them. If someone refuses to be a part of that plan,because he dislikes the idea of being tampered with before he was born,then he will be the loser,not God and not the elect. You will certainly carry out God's purpose however you act,but it makes a difference to you whether you serve like Judas or like John!
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Caught you in your own words, Yelsew!
Romans 7 presents the picture of a man who "wills" to do good but who is unable to because of a "law" in his flesh. Only the Spirit could empower the doing of good.
Free will is free to do what is in a person's disposition. If a person has a disposition to sin, that person is free to sin. In fact, he cannot not sin.
rufus
Free will is free to do what is in a person's disposition. If a person has a disposition to sin, that person is free to sin. In fact, he cannot not sin.
rufus
Amen, rufus.
Brutus,
I believe Romans 10.14 gives us the order, I have posted it before and the best any can do is accuse of words I don't even know....esigesis???
What is the order in Romans 10.14? plain and simple.
God Bless.
Bro. Dallas
Brutus,
I believe Romans 10.14 gives us the order, I have posted it before and the best any can do is accuse of words I don't even know....esigesis???
What is the order in Romans 10.14? plain and simple.
God Bless.
Bro. Dallas
Prayer is like preaching in that it is a human act also. It is a human act that God has ordained and which He delights in because it reflects the dependence of His creatures upon Him.
He has promised to respond to prayer,and His response is just as contingent upon our prayer as our prayer is in accordance with His will. "And this is the confidence which we have before Him,that if we ask anything according to His will,He hears us"(1Jn.5:14). When we don't know how to pray according to God's will but desire it earnestly, "the Spirit of God intercedes for us according to the will of God"(Rom.8:27).
In other words,just as God will see to it that His word is proclaimed as a means to saving the elect,so He will see to it that all those prayers are prayed which He has promised to respond to.
I Think Paul's words in Rom.15:18 would apply equally well to his preaching and his praying ministry: "I will not presume to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me,resulting in the obedience of the Gentiles." Even our prayers are a gift from the one who "works in us that which is pleasing in His sight"(Heb.13:21).
Oh listen,how grateful we should be that He has chosen us to be employed in this high service!! And how eager we should be to spend time in prayer!
He has promised to respond to prayer,and His response is just as contingent upon our prayer as our prayer is in accordance with His will. "And this is the confidence which we have before Him,that if we ask anything according to His will,He hears us"(1Jn.5:14). When we don't know how to pray according to God's will but desire it earnestly, "the Spirit of God intercedes for us according to the will of God"(Rom.8:27).
In other words,just as God will see to it that His word is proclaimed as a means to saving the elect,so He will see to it that all those prayers are prayed which He has promised to respond to.
I Think Paul's words in Rom.15:18 would apply equally well to his preaching and his praying ministry: "I will not presume to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me,resulting in the obedience of the Gentiles." Even our prayers are a gift from the one who "works in us that which is pleasing in His sight"(Heb.13:21).
Oh listen,how grateful we should be that He has chosen us to be employed in this high service!! And how eager we should be to spend time in prayer!
KenH
Well-Known Member
Yelsew,
I am quite sure that your brand of false gospel is based on salesmanship instead of Biblical truth.
I pray for the lost because I believe God, according to His good pleasure and perfect will, actually saves individuals. He doesn't rely on individuals to save themselves. Salvation is much too important to leave in the hands of spiritually dead sinners who cannot even lift a single finger toward their own salvation.
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Yelsew,
I am quite sure that your brand of false gospel is based on salesmanship instead of Biblical truth.
I pray for the lost because I believe God, according to His good pleasure and perfect will, actually saves individuals. He doesn't rely on individuals to save themselves. Salvation is much too important to leave in the hands of spiritually dead sinners who cannot even lift a single finger toward their own salvation. </font>[/QUOTE]Romans 10:14, 15a. How then are they to call on him if they have not come to believe in him? And how can they believe in him if they have never heard of him? And how will they hear of him unless there is a preacher for them? And how will there be preachers if they are not sent?
The Apostle Paul says the Word of God does not preach itself.
The Gospel is passed one person to another via the salesman preacher. The hearer is either "Sold" on the Gospel, or he puts up the "No Sale" sign.
The greek would is "akouo" which is used in the scripture to mean hear and understand all the time. The work "akouo" is used when speaking of Jesus hearing from the Father. So, you interpretation doesn't hold water.
You say that just because the Gentiles will listen doesn't mean they will hear and understand, but that makes this entire verse sound like complete non-sense.
Look at the context of the verse. He "persuades" several Jews to believe but most of them refuse to hear and understand. In a sence of frustration Paul quotes the OT which refers to Israel's hardening saying that they cannot see...hear...understand because of their hardening OTHERWISE they could see...hear...understand and be converted. In other words, if not for their hardening this would be what they were able to do. In that context he goes on to say I'm taking this message to the Gentiles because they will listen! (Notice the exclaimation point.)
Dallas, be honest and objective now. Do you really think that when Paul wrote this he was thinking in his mind these words:
"You Israelites are hearing but never listening, seeing but never percieving just as the Prophets of old told us, you are hardened to the things of God otherwise you might see, hear, understand and turn to God for healing. So I'm taking the message to the Gentiles, they will listen, but they are also hardened and can't hear, see, or understand either, so really there is no difference between you two groups, I'm just rambling."
Do you see what your interpretation does? It makes the Gentiles in the same boat of hardening as the Israelites and that makes absolutely no sence in this passage. Why would Paul think he would have any more results taking the message to the Gentiles if they are as hardened as the Israelites? Your interpretation completely undermines the obvious intent of this passage.
Bro. Bill,
Paul believed the Gospel was the power of God unto salvation.
Paul also says later in Scripture to Timothy (II Tim. 3.7): "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."
I may be wrong on the meaning of the Greek, I will look at it again, but I do try to make the Bible consistent, because I know I cannot be as consistent as the word of God.
God Bless.
Bro. Dallas
Paul believed the Gospel was the power of God unto salvation.
Paul also says later in Scripture to Timothy (II Tim. 3.7): "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."
I may be wrong on the meaning of the Greek, I will look at it again, but I do try to make the Bible consistent, because I know I cannot be as consistent as the word of God.
God Bless.
Bro. Dallas
This is one reason why it is obvious your reasoning comes from the pit, since you seem to be so comfortable speaking his native language even after your points have been proved false. As I have pointed out to you before, "hear" may or may not lead to "understand". And as I pointed out before, you can see this by backing up just two verses to Acts 28:26:
The word "hear" in bold is the same word "akouo".
Given your interpretation, it seems you hold water. You're all wet.
Dallas, look at this verse in Context:
But know this: difficult times will come in the last days. 2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 unloving, irreconcilable, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, without love for what is good, 4 traitors, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 holding to the form of religion but denying its power. Avoid these people! 6 For among them are those who worm their way into households and capture idle women burdened down with sins, led along by a variety of passions, 7 always learning and never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so these also resist the truth, men who are corrupt in mind, worthless in regard to the faith.
He is speaking about people who never have faith in Christ. This verse doesn't say that God hardened them to be ever learning but never understanding. They very well could be this way because of their lack of faith and trust in Christ, just as the Israelites were when God decided to harden them for a divine purpose.
I'm not going to be responding to Nick directly as long as he is calling my arguments "from the pit." But, I want you to be aware that the word "akouo" can mean (1) "to listen as in understand" or it could mean (2)"to hear but still not understand" depending on the context.
My argument to you, which was ignored by Nick, was that in this context of Acts 28:28 it makes little since to interpret it in the first method for the verse would mean this:
'Go to this people and say: "Hearing you will hear, and shall not understand; And seeing you will see, and not perceive; 27 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them." ' F114 28 "Therefore let it be known to you that the salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will hear it, but not understand it either."
That makes so sence. Why would Paul set the Gentiles up in contrast with the Hardened Israelites if they were in the same totally depraved boat, as Calvinist assume?
This would be equivilant to teacher who has a morning class and a different afternoon class coming to you and saying, "My morning class is horriable, every single one of them is rude and none of them want to learn a thing. I'm not even going to try to teach them anymore, I'm going to focus on teaching my afternoon class, they will listen!"
Can you imagine interpreting that to mean that the second class is just a rude and unwilling to listen as the first class? It just doesn't make sense.
If the teacher believed that both classes were equally rude and unwilling to listen, she would have said, "My morning and afternoon classes are rude and unwilling to listen, I'm going ignore my morning class and force my afternoon class to listen."
How can you interpret this verse without completely destroying the authors obvious intent?
Dallas, look at this verse in Context:
But know this: difficult times will come in the last days. 2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 unloving, irreconcilable, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, without love for what is good, 4 traitors, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 holding to the form of religion but denying its power . Avoid these people! 6 For among them are those who worm their way into households and capture idle women burdened down with sins, led along by a variety of passions, 7 always learning and never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so these also resist the truth, men who are corrupt in mind, worthless in regard to the faith.
He is speaking about people who never have faith in Christ. This verse doesn't say that God hardened them to be ever learning but never understanding. They very well could be this way because of their lack of faith and trust in Christ, just as the Israelites were when God decided to harden them for a divine purpose.
I'm not going to be responding to Nick directly as long as he is calling my arguments "from the pit." But, I want you to be aware that the word "akouo" can mean (1) "to listen as in understand" or it could mean (2)"to hear but still not understand" depending on the context.
My argument to you, which was ignored by Nick, was that in this context of Acts 28:28 it makes little since to interpret it in the first method for the verse would mean this:
'Go to this people and say: "Hearing you will hear, and shall not understand; And seeing you will see, and not perceive; 27 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them." ' F114 28 "Therefore let it be known to you that the salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will hear it, but not understand it either."
That makes so sence. Why would Paul set the Gentiles up in contrast with the Hardened Israelites if they were in the same totally depraved boat, as Calvinist assume?
This would be equivilant to teacher who has a morning class and a different afternoon class coming to you and saying, "My morning class is horriable, every single one of them is rude and none of them want to learn a thing. I'm not even going to try to teach them anymore, I'm going to focus on teaching my afternoon class, they will listen!"
Can you imagine interpreting that to mean that the second class is just a rude and unwilling to listen as the first class? It just doesn't make sense.
If the teacher believed that both classes were equally rude and unwilling to listen, she would have said, "My morning and afternoon classes are rude and unwilling to listen, I'm going ignore my morning class and force my afternoon class to listen."
How can you interpret this verse without completely destroying the authors obvious intent? </font>[/QUOTE]Brother Bill, the bolded portion of scripture above is my addition (I attempted to bold vs. 5) this is the effect of the will of man, which is the description also provided.
Paul does not say that collectively the Gentiles will hear, listen or understand. Remember, originally the Gentile nations had no part in the covenant of God. The offer of this Gospel to any, apart from the circumcision of the Jew into the covenant, I believe should be considered here for the correct understanding of the context and the scripture.
Unfortunately, though not observed in every classroom teacher, there are teachers in our schools who react exactly as you have described, regardless of the fact that if I had the same two groups, I may choose to favor the morning group. This is because of personal preferences in the teacher, which should not be present, but because of human attributes, especially our own fallen nature we do so react. It is a real problem that really occurs. It is something I am glad to be reminded of my need to guard against as I aspire to be a future classroom instructor.
God Bless.
Bro. Dallas
Sorry, Dallas, not trying to be difficult but I'm just not following you argument here.
Oh, I am considering that. In fact, that gives my viewpoint even more strength. The Gentiles, as you correctly state, had no part iin the covenant of God, therefore they couldn't have rebelled from it and become hardened as were the Israelites.
You are also correct that this verse doesn't specifically say that the Gentiles will hear, listen, and understand. But it most definitately implies that they will hear and that they "might see...hear...understand and turn to God for healing." The word "otherwise" in this passage clearly shows us what "might" happen if these people were not hardened. The Gentiles are not hardened, therefore they "might see...hear...understand and turn or some of them might be unwilling as were many of the Israelites.
Dallas, I think you may have missed the point of this little analogy, I wasn't critizing the teachers reaction to her rebellous class, she has every right to focus her attention on the afternoon class (that's really not the point). The point I was trying to make was this:
Why would a teacher describe one class as being unwilling to learn and follow that up by saying, "so I'm going to teach another class." If she knows full well that the other class is just as unwilling to learn as the first class. Does that make sense?
Why would Paul describe Israel as unable to understand and then say, "So I'm taking the message over hear to this group who also is unable to understand." That just doesn't make sense to me. Can you explain that?
I sincerely don't know, even when I try to take the Calvinistic perspective, how that interpretation could be supported. Please help me to see it.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Bill,
You Said:It makes the Gentiles in the same boat of hardening as the Israelites and that makes absolutely no sence in this passage.
Well, yes it does make sense. It is not Romans which says:
Romans 10:11-12 11 Now the Scripture says, No one who believes on Him will be put to shame,
12 for there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, since the same Lord of all is rich to all who call on Him
It would seem that Paul thought that the Jews and Gentiles were in the "Same Boat."
Interestingly enough, Paul writes in Romans 10:10 10 With the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation.
With the heart one believes. How can that be?
Genesis 6:5 - Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Genesis 8:21 -The LORD smelled the soothing aroma; and the LORD said to Himself, "I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done.
Psalm 14:1 -The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good. (Emphasis Mine)
Jeremiah 17:9 -"The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?
The heart is the most wicked thing we have (ok..not the physical one that pumps blood--I think we all know that!) How can one believe in God with a wicked, rotten heart? Only if God gives a new heart. Then, and only then, can someone believe.
Blessings,
Archangel
You Said:It makes the Gentiles in the same boat of hardening as the Israelites and that makes absolutely no sence in this passage.
Well, yes it does make sense. It is not Romans which says:
Romans 10:11-12 11 Now the Scripture says, No one who believes on Him will be put to shame,
12 for there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, since the same Lord of all is rich to all who call on Him
It would seem that Paul thought that the Jews and Gentiles were in the "Same Boat."
Interestingly enough, Paul writes in Romans 10:10 10 With the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation.
With the heart one believes. How can that be?
Genesis 6:5 - Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Genesis 8:21 -The LORD smelled the soothing aroma; and the LORD said to Himself, "I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done.
Psalm 14:1 -The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good. (Emphasis Mine)
Jeremiah 17:9 -"The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?
The heart is the most wicked thing we have (ok..not the physical one that pumps blood--I think we all know that!) How can one believe in God with a wicked, rotten heart? Only if God gives a new heart. Then, and only then, can someone believe.
Blessings,
Archangel
KenH
Well-Known Member
romanbear,
I noticed that you evidently didn't like the result of the challenge you made to me to look up the word "regeneration" in a Bible dictionary. An objective, third party source destroyed your viewpoint. Your idea of regeneration, by definition, has absolutely no support in the Bible.
I noticed that you evidently didn't like the result of the challenge you made to me to look up the word "regeneration" in a Bible dictionary. An objective, third party source destroyed your viewpoint. Your idea of regeneration, by definition, has absolutely no support in the Bible.
This is the effect of the depraved will of man as is described in the context.
(BTW, have you seen those commercials about Texas on the History channel? I love them, they are great!! That is off topic, but I just wanted to say that.)
Bro. Dallas